Okay--first off, I wasn't involved in the following conversation; I was eavesdropping!
You know how it is when you happen to be in a public place. You are minding your own business until you're not minding your own business
So, there I sat sipping my coffee. Two guys who were perhaps a father and son had been talking at a certain volume when I sat down that I could barely hear them until the topic changed or transitioned. The volume grew louder.
That's when I became a neutral 3rd party eavesdropper and started scrutinizing the details.
I gathered from the context the Dad was maybe a fundamentalist. The son? I don't know what he was except for the demonstrations he made against what his "Dad" was saying.
The topic seemed to be whether homosexuality was negative.
Of course, the Dad was using words like "abomination" and such quite unself-consciously and the son was deeply offended and embarassed.
I'm going to simulate the argument as best I can since I had no way to record it.
The reason I reproduce it here and create a discussion topic out of it will become clear.
I was stumped by something that was said. I couldn't get past it. I couldn't even assess it! Unusual for me, I must say.
Here goes...
Dad: "I don't agree. There is Normal and then there is homosexual which is NOT normal..."
Son: "That's how your generation felt about a lot of things. This is a new century and a new Millennium from when you were born."
Dad: "Right and wrong have no century or millennium; there is no shelf date!"
Son: "It isn't a question of Right or Wrong. It is prejudice, bigotry and oppression falling away and society deciding everybody is entitled to the same human rights!"
Dad: "Well, there is where you and I see very differently. Just because you grow accustomed to something you see everywhere doesn't make it Normal--it just makes it Usual. I don't confuse the two thing morally! You need to look at the morality first and the social acceptance thing as a lower priority."
Son: "I know when you were growing up calling somebody Queer was okay. It was Normal for young men to do that. Today it is bullying and antisocial harassment. Where is the morality in bullying somebody who is different from you?"
Dad: "I'm not saying it is okay to call names. That is always wrong. But, hiding behind political correctness doesn't make the problem go away."
Son: "Why is two people loving each other and wanting to spend their lives together such a threat to you?"
Dad: "When you make it out to be just that, of course it is a great thing. But, when it happens to be two people of the same sex you put more chips in the pot and you are gambling heavy stakes with the FAMILY unit. You are REdefining what it means to be a FAMILY."
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Okay, you get the idea. We've all heard this sort of thing a million times. The older conservative religious guy and the young person struggling to break through the hard headed opinions set in concrete.
I was about to "tune-out" when it got really (for me) interesting!
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Son: "Let me ask you a question. Okay?"
Dad: "Okay."
Son: "Did you ever sit down when you were young and DECIDE whether you wanted to be straight or gay?"
Dad: "No. Of course not."
Son: "Right. You were BORN straight."
Dad: "Of course I was!"
Son: "You say: of course. What you don't get is this. Some people aren't BORN straight. They know from the time they are very very young that they are not straight. The are BORN GAY."
Dad: "So?"
Son: "You accept what I just said? You believe right now that people are born a certain way and don't choose?"
Dad:"I don't know. Maybe most people are born one way or other. I'd have to know everybody in the world to say confidently. But, yes."
Son: "Then it is a question of WHAT IS FAIR! If somebody is born attracted to the same sex WHO ARE YOU to deny them their own nature?"
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Note: This is where I knew the Son had won the argument.......or so I thought! I was in for a little surprise. The one that stumped me!
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Dad: "You think that's all there is to it do you?"
Son: "Yes. It really really is all there is to it. Basic FAIRNESS."
Dad: "I knew a kid when I was growing up who just loved to start FIRES! He'd set fire to a trash can or the inside of somebody's car. All the time! He loved it. He tried to burn his grandmother's house down but a neighbor saw him in time and called the Fired Department. He told the police he 'couldn't help himself' he just had to do it. And I knew of another kid who was always trying to molest somebody's baby! He'd put his hand inside the diaper and fondle them! Disgusting! He was caught many times and always made an excuse. But, when we got older I heard him tell somebody that he wasn't turned on by anybody older!! WHAT ABOUT FAIRNESS FOR THESE KIND OF PEOPLE--should we tolerate people compelled to light fires and molest kids?"
Son: "What the F**K?"
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And that is exactly what I was thinking when I overheard this!
At first it made me angry. But, as a rational argument I was stopped cold. My brain was stuck in the mud.
As a "rational" argument about FAIRNESS I think the Dad has grounds for leverage here.
He wasn't just equating homosexuality with perversion. He was changing the venue to being "born that way" with basic fairness!
If you can't "help" what turns you on should you be considered NORMAL and given equal human rights?
THERE HAVE TO BE BOUNDRIES for human behavior. Or--not?
The mere fact of "human nature" or what we are born with---becomes irrelevent at some crossover point---doesn't it?
Who decides?
How?
I'm stumped.
How can a Society draw a line on nature? On permission? On equal rights?
The nature of nature is that it is VARIED from case to case!
Any ideas or arguments to help sort this out?