TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP 302 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    Well, you seem determined to think that Jesus, Paul and all the followers of Jesus were knuckle dragging, racist women haters.

    Go for it.

    But the nuances of what is there in what even secular scholars regard as genuine suggest otherwise.

    Maybe you are looking for evidence that Paul was an early signatory to the ERA? Or maybe a picture of him carrying a suffragette on his back?

    Maybe a scripture encouraging women to burn their bras and not shave under their arms.

    It's one thing to question the story as fundamental christians tell it, and another to completely ignore the body of scholarship (textual criticism, historical criticism and source criticism) that suggests that Paul was overwhelmed with what he saw in the small group of people that were grieving over losing their prophet. Paul went on to lionize Jesus, unfortunately, and the power structure that built up around that group of believers did away with the simple followers of Jesus, who was a jewish prophet.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    EP, you made a reference to revisionist history, what are you referring to as revisionist?

    Answer the question:

    Does Jesus approve of rape, or not? You seem to know so much of ancient near eastern history, please don't keep us in suspense.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I'm just glad that, morally, I prefer me to Jesus.I have recorded for all to see my disgust at slavery, homophobia, sexism and sexual abuse. I have never, nor would seek to, throw a farmers herd of pigs off a cliff, infect or destroy a fruit bearing plant in response to it currently having no fruit, offer medical services only upon the person's belief in supernatural magic, encourage the bearing of and purchase of weapons, encourage people to leave family relationships on my behalf, inyroduce very dangerous fasting habits, condone books supportive of genocide and virgin rape, have people give me expensive gifts of gold and perfume as an act of worship, encourage running away from parents and speaking insolently to panicked parents and finally, i would never threaten people with hell, pretend they needed a blood sacrifice to pay me for arbitrary rule transgressions i had concocted in iron age ethical surroundings and then tell everyone i would be ruling them forever.

    Mainly i just keep my head down, work hard and try to live and let live.

  • Terry
    Terry

    I just popped in to take a look at this thread.........................Pop!

    1.What we buy in the bookstore that is titled THE HOLY BIBLE is a result . It is the result of a process. The process has been ongoing. It is the work of many hands and those hands have a mind behind them. The minds who have put pen to paper or parchment were driven by ideology.

    2.The bible is the state of the art in ideology. It is like the latest copy of a rough draft of a speech. But, the speech has no author! How is that possible? Because there is no FIRST DRAFT!

    3.The oral histories, myths, legends and statecraft of the people who became Jews was never just ONE THING. Each faction within Judaism had their own personal VERSION.

    4. After the return from exile in Babylon it became necessary to bind together a dispersed people by creating a unifying document. The bible (Or OLD TESTAMENT) was the conscious result of tying together differing parts of those versions as best as could be done. Today we'd call this trying to get everybody together on the same page.

    5.As the Jews bumped into stronger, more powerful and advanced civilizations (the Greeks, for example) they adapted the Greek or Babylonian views into their own past histories and dealings with the divine. Improved versions of the retellings constantly eroded and reformed the personal saga of their nationality.

    6.The culmination of the Jewish experience came with the Septuigent, or greek language, version of the Jewish omnibus of their history with their divine overlord. The "modern" Jewish religious man or woman couldn't read Hebrew and relied on a Greek conversational version instead.

    7.Saul of Tarsus, renamed Paul, began circulating his own personal theory of how the Jewish Messiah could have already come as the person of Jesus; even though Jesus had been rejected and put to death. He mixed pagan Platonic thought familiar to Romans with Jewish mysticsm.

    8.The Roman empire found itself ruled by a man from the Sol Invictus cult (worship of the sun god) who was sympathetic to Christianity inasmuch as their grassroots support could solidify his authority.

    9.Constantine sought to end the bickering over doctrinal matters pertaining to christianity by convening a council for that purpose. It was thought that debate could settle the wounds between the natural Judaic christians and the Pauline converts.

    10. A consensus was temporarily declared and those in disagreement were dealt with harshly.

    11.Constantine changed his views several times and the orthodoxy changed with him. People went in and out of favor.

    12.Eventually, the debate finally seemingly ended with an official canon being declared closed.

    After that, the majority of christians were left to sort out their differences the same old way: arguing, debating, fighting, and violence.

    Over the centuries a central clearing house for orthodoxy arose with the political and religious authority to put to death or torture anybody who disagreed with its offical declarations of what God's word said and meant: the Catholic Church.

    Sects, cults, heretics and evangelizers put their respective spin on the written word.

    Philosophers sought to explain the inexplicable in Christian doctrine. (St.Augustine and Thomas Aquinas chiefly).

    The vast majority of Roman citizens were unable to read the bible and the official language of the Church became impenetrable Latin which dealt a double blow to self-discovery of scripture.

    The Catholic Church made up whatever it needed to say to deal with political vicissitudes. What they declared righteous or wicked was accepted as such on authority.

    Along came Martin Luther who decided each christian has the sole authority to interpret scripture without the majesterium of the Pope.

    All translations incorporated whatever views were deemed most persuasive into the text. This meant things were added or subtracted or altered all along the way throughout history.

    At first, translators were tortured and put to death. Later, their work was deemed acceptable and used as source material.

    Today Christianity appears to be just one religion. In reality, it is many factions claiming authority from doctored texts changed according to ancient and political ideologies.

    That is why I always say about the bible: THERE IS NO "THERE" THERE.

    I think I'm popping out again now..............................Pop!

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    RE: Paul and women.

    This often debate and dicussed topic exists because of what was written in 2 letters ( 2Timothy and 2Corinthians I think) in passages that many scholras have issues with.

    That said and assuming that ALL was written by Paul, those passages that are directed to specififc people ( congregation in Corininth and Timothy) and are speaking ( perhaps) on specific circumstances, do not over rule the other passages, such as in Romans, where Paul clearly accepts and praies females and even names at least one as an Apostle:

    Romans 16
    New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

    Personal Greetings
    16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well.

    3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me in Christ Jesus, 4 and who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convert in Asia for Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked very hard among you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys. 10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. 11 Greet my relative Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. 12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; and greet his mother—a mother to me also. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sisters who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.

    To state that a female was prominant amongst the Apostles is as "equal" a statement as one can find I think.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    For PSacramento.

    Haven't read those books. That does not detract from my point that if entire passages are identical, it is likely that one is a copy of another.

    Scholars first look at the first written accounts and how far away they were from events. I'll illustrate. There's the legend of Lady Godiva, an 11th century Anglo-Saxon noblewoman. She may be the same Lady Godiva who appears in the history of Ely Abbey written at the end of th 12th centry. The legend of her famous nude ride did not appear until the 13th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Godiva

    The earliest account of the life of Jesus is now believed to be the Gospel of Mark, written 70 years after the events.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

    Bauckham's methods, listed in the amazon review, includes "....study of personal names in the first century, and recent developments in the understanding of oral traditions. [He] also taps into the rich resources of modern study of memory and cognitive psychology..."

    So he did not take in to account, as I have said, those sections that are copies of each other.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Well, you seem determined to think that Jesus, Paul and all the followers of Jesus were knuckle dragging, racist women haters.

    Blah blah blah, more made up stuff and revisionist history. You're adorable. You should start writing children's stories with your imagination into fantasyland.

    Answer the question:

    As I said, when you can show where ANY of the claims you have made about me are true, then I will be happy to help you with any questions you are struggling with.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    To state that a female was prominant amongst the Apostles is as "equal" a statement as one can find I think.

    But it's not equal. Frederick Douglas was prominent, but certainly not equal.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Haven't read those books. That does not detract from my point that if entire passages are identical, it is likely that one is a copy of another.

    Scholars first look at the first written accounts and how far away they were from events. I'll illustrate. There's the legend of Lady Godiva, an 11th century Anglo-Saxon noblewoman. She may be the same Lady Godiva who appears in the history of Ely Abbey written at the end of th 12th centry. The legend of her famous nude ride did not appear until the 13th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Godiva

    The earliest account of the life of Jesus is now believed to be the Gospel of Mark, written 70 years after the events.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark

    Bauckham's methods, listed in the amazon review, includes "....study of personal names in the first century, and recent developments in the understanding of oral traditions. [He] also taps into the rich resources of modern study of memory and cognitive psychology..."

    So he did not take in to account, as I have said, those sections that are copies of each other.

    Both books addess the "issue" that one gospel maybe dependant on another ( or more than one).

    The GOM is typically dated to 60-70 AD, which puts it about 30-40 years from Jesus' death, not 70 years after the events.

    A time where it made sense to start writing thinsg down because the qty of eyewitnesses was getting less and less.

    IMO, That one gospel writer took info from another what was perhaps already circulating (to from the same source as the one circulating) is not a big issue since there is no reason to believe that the writers of the Gospels were eyewitnesses or even the apostles but seems to me that they were writing on thier ( the apsotles/eyewitnesses) "behalf".

    A gospel being attributed to an apotle ( Matthew's for example) does NOT mean it was written by Him, it means that it was based on His view, as he transmitted it and if the writer wanted to add to it based on another recognised source (mark for example) that is quite accetable.

    Luke openly admits this.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Psac, I am so sorry for those with a narrow view. I can understand saying the people acted without any true instructions from a God and just used a false claim to steal girls for plunder or wives.

    But to imagine that killing men and women then forcing their female children into marriage meant that the consequent sex was not rape on a technicality- that saddens me.

    I don't believe these stories are actual history, but I do believe that actual rape occurred when one people attacked another. I am sure that many of these rapes were followed by marriage claims and/or ceremonies to appease the priests.

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