Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere! (page 4)

Pterist

Nib, I have been to many Messianic Jews for Jesus meetings, here in West Palm Beach Florida and recently live in a predominately Jewish neighbourhood in Boca. I feel very much at home and they all love the new Irish kid on the block, considering its a 55+ community but NOT Century Village or cemetery as some say here LOL......So I'm courious, your not in a Christian denomination like myself, but you do accept Christ as Messiah, so are you with Jews for Jesus, or a Jewish Kabbalah ? You can PM answer if wish !

Shalom

prologos

cofty, your first explanation makes sense. context trumps. if it is not simple, it is probably wrong. It also synergisticly solves the other conflicting claims on the other topic, thread twisted together: If the Israel of God are all Christian(s) they must have populated the Falklands, urugua, argentina?

tec

Pterist, I am also agreeing with you regarding Israel, the branches being cut off, new branches being grafted in, and then bringing the branches cut off in as well. I don't think there is a conflict in Paul's descriptions, just a different example of the same thing.

Peace,

tammy

Pterist

Yup thanks Tammy

nibbled

Tammy, I'm sort of stunned.

You may be the first person who believes as I do.

I'm stunned.

I'm wondering, did I miss something. Some parentheses of thought?

I don't think so, your mention of Israel is distinct and contrasted against the great multitude, thus you must accept them as flesh descendants of the tribe.

Not all are kings and priests, yup. They turned down the offer, from Christ and then from Peter. 144,000 will, and some may come in through the great crowd, but that is the remnant, no matter how we look at it.

Bride is of Israel, the body of the Groom is made up of all nations, as you would expect that his household would be, as he is King of the world!

The marriage brings all things into unity into one family, one household ruling in heaven.

And… drum roll please, so you also believe that back on earth those who were promised the land, and the earth, will receive just that, no more than they were promised, but much less than they could have obtained, if only they'd had faith…!?

Wow. I've thought I was alone. I really truly started to believe I might have been the only person who believed the scriptures as written! I've been mocked for it, and driven to tears, by my dad (though he's a witness).

nibbled

cofty - Your "bogged down" is my pleasure! I love this! I love reading, and I asked for a book that wouldn't bore me. I didn't even ask God, in prayer or anything like that, I didn't even pray back then (anymore) if I recall correctly. I just wondered out loud to myself when sitting in my new half-unpacked apartment with things strewn everywhere, "I wish I had a good book to read." No kidding my eyes fell on the bible, the only version I owned at the time (NWT) and I wasn't going to just pretend it didn't happen.

Funny is that the answer was both literal and figurative. I got the message, get one you want to read. :)

So, I agree with all your post except one thing—not sure that I can agree with "no less Jew". They weren't Jew at all. Just like Abraham's other children never had (great grand) kids which became Jews. Only Isaac through Jacob through Judah (and the tribe(s) in his kingdom).

If you mean "no less privileged", spot on, and precisely!

Pleased to meet you—what's your story?

nibbled

Pterist, I was raised a Witness, and was baptized for 20 years until I realized that my baptism was not valid, and that the truth was not a religion.

Thanks to the fact that the Watchtower taught me that all denominations of Christianity (of course, except them) were Christendom, synonymous for Babylon the Great, I had no where to go.

But when my mom said, but "where will you go?"

I answered, mom, the quote is "who".

I went to him.

I don't belong to any organization, never been to meetings of any religion besides that which I was raised, as a Jehovah's Witness.

I'm baptized "in the name of Jehovah, his son Jesus Christ, and the spirit-directed organization." (Matt 28:19)

I imagine that the lawyers in the room can spot all kinds of issues with that contract, so I consider it null and void in a spiritual sense, and sometimes am amused that if given the opportunity I would take it to court.

About as soon as I learned that my baptism wasn't valid, I wondered what then? And as soon as that thought settled into my mind, in the form where you are prepared to take action, the answer came.

I wonder if you know what I mean?

After my baptism, I began to learn more than I've ever learned in my entire life. 20 years being Watched by the Tower, and I never managed to learn anything in a spiritual sense. I may be complimented on my intelligence, but it's still not a comparison to this experience.

Suddenly I was taught world history, evolution of worship and the rise of religion, etc.

They always say hindsight is 20/20. I was well prepped. My footsteps have fallen where I'd not have planned to be, later to learn the significance of all I'd seen.

(Uh oh, I get into rhyming. ChannelC wasn't very fond of it.)

In any case, I lived briefly in Rome, stood in the Mithraic church which became the congregations hiding place under the shadow of the Colosseum, Toledo, Espana, known for it's Jewish roots. Etruscan tombs whose graphic imagery tells the tale of the culture which explains what the scriptures warned about happening. I walked the paths along the hills of Greece, not realizing Paul's footsteps were buried beneath mine (although that one I know I felt it, I was still a JW 'kid' then, but still I didn't plan, I was at the 'mercy' of a companion and coincidence).

Anyway, all this is to say I have so many stories. I don't just believe what I have read, I have lived in it. And it's not by accident, I didn't plan it and just how many coincidences can one take before they finally give in and simply believe?

nibbled

Tammy and Pterist,

Paul gives a theology here of the remnant. Some of the--a lot of the Jews have not accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, they seem to be cut off, they're like branches of an olive tree that are cut off. And the Gentiles, who are not natural branches of the olive tree, have been grafted in their place. That means that they're part of Israel now. Notice what this means.

Pterist, I am also agreeing with you regarding Israel, the branches being cut off, new branches being grafted in, and then bringing the branches cut off in as well. I don't think there is a conflict in Paul's descriptions, just a different example of the same thing.

Paul said branches would be pruned, new ones grafted, then even that the ones pruned could be grafted and as compared to the unnatural branches would take even more readily.

It's that conclusion, "that means that they're part of Israel now".

Why? Why do you say that? Please help me.

I think we all agree that the patriarchs weren't Israel nor Judah, while Jacob a.k.a. Israel, we're clear that it's Abraham's seed, of which Isaac and Jacob were descendant. Thus, I cannot understand how "that means they're part of Israel now".

How does Israel get inserted in the equation then?

Cofty said (though later it appears he and prologos amended that understanding...?):

To be a child of Abraham was to be a Jew.

That's why I put up the family tree image. To be a child of Abraham meant you could have been of one of many nations, Judah being just one. And Judah was just one of two nations of the descent of the promised seed. To become Abraham's child without conversion into the nation (adoption into covenant by circumcision) wasn't legally (nor spiritually) possible prior to Christ.

Christ appears, suddenly at his death all nations are blessed, and all are able to enter into the new covenant his sacrifice having fulfilled the old covenant.

Yet, we're not adopted as Christ's children, but his brothers and sisters of his "generation" as it were. He as a son of Abraham (in faith) our closest common relative, for those who are not of Israelite (united nation) descent.

After all this, still not Jew, not Israel.

What am I missing? Where do we not connect here? I feel like we're soooo close. I thought actually Tammy and I had same understanding until I saw that post. (Scrolling up and down is hard to keep track, threaded posts are so much easier!)

EntirelyPossible

Wow, that's an amazing story, nibbled. How old were you when you got baptized?

nibbled

@EntirelyPossible By water or spirit?

Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

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