Who is the Israel of God? Used one in scripture, claimed by Christians everywhere!

by nibbled 73 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nibbled

    @EntirelyPossible is your "oh?" directed towards the compliment or the laws which govern? :)

  • cofty

    I think you are getting bogged down on detail.

    The proudest boast of a Jew was that he or she was a child of Abraham.

    Of course Abraham spawned other nations - including enemies of Israel like Edom for example but that is besides the point. That may be why Paul gets into the Hagar v Sarah thing.

    To be a child of Abraham was to be a Jew. Paul assures gentile christians that they are also children of Abraham through faith and therefore no less a Jew despite their lack of physical circumcision.

    And he lectures physical Jews not to rely on their physical descent for slavation.

  • nibbled

    Sorry about the large paragraph breaks, I use a tool that apparently converts it into double when I paste it into the reply.

    Pterist, do you believe Abraham is a Jew? Or an Israelite?

    Do you believe any of the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, were?

    Who is the root, if you were to name it as a person or persons? I've assumed it's Abraham (as we are his seed by faith) or Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the patriarchs of the family faith.

    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not Jews or Israelites, just Hebrew. So at best the root of the vine is Hebrew.

    Now, Christ was the promised branch, the true vine.

    "Jews have not accepted that Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, they seem to be cut off, they're like branches of an olive tree that are cut off. And the Gentiles, who are not natural branches of the olive tree, have been grafted in their place. That means that they're part of Israel now."

    Funny, I wrote about this, but I'm more inclined to write fresh. I'll go later to see if I can find it. I started the blog so I had an easier way to find stuff. I have notes everywhere—emails, Evernote, Notes app, etc.


    That means that they're part of Israel now.

    I believe that the root is not Israel. It is either "faith" or Abraham. Jesus was the promised branch, the true vine. He was a vine or branch, not the root. Israel's twelve tribes were the branches, and ten branches were pruned right away, then even more later. Then we were grafted in.

    A hardening happened upon a part of Israel (some accepted the Messiah), and that hardening which is still upon them will be lifted, and thus all Israel will be saved. But first, he's letting us all get in on the good's. The opportunity lasts until the "full number" come in. After we have, "as it is written" then "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob." That's not us, that's them—the hardened ones. And there will be a covenant with them (they had an old covenant and they will get a new covenant, but they're not apart of THE new covenant, they missed that opportunity because they were hardened). And well, at that point Paul points out that we can go read the new covenant that happens for the hardened now softened people in Isaiah. There's no "coming to know and learning to love Jehovah". Nope. (Isa 59:20,21)

    All Israel is saved because after he's done gathering us, he's going to go back to dealing with them. Not because he's renamed us Israel.

    I feel passionately about my understanding, but I am very much seeking to understand what everyone believes to understand why what I "see" is so different. I can "see" it so clearly, but it's so different than what feels like EVERYONE else!

    I like the AMP version of the scriptures, but sometimes their theology is wrong. It seems pretty spot on for Romans 11. They are clear that Jews were the ones present when Messiah came, and all other parenthetical details. Check it out? My belief is not based on it. I don't really read one version. I am mostly in the interlinears. Call it distrust I learned from my upbringing. I want to know what it really says! :)

    I just finished reading the rest of that post—I'd forgotten in responding that this was a Yale class. I bet that teacher would hate me. All the teachers I ever had loved me because I never asked questions and always knew the answer. I've never been in this kind of spot before!

    Thanks Pterist! Feed me more! I've been starving!

    As for the rest of the post —

    Paul isn't starting a new religion. He's doing quite the opposite. God gave the Law to Israel. Israelites ignored it, Jews turned it into a religion. Christ fulfilled it and said keep it simple: ten commandments. Paul reinforces Christ's "new wine" definition of worship—I completed the sacrifice requirement, now love each other, drink wine and eat bread together and remember me. Keep doing this till I come back. Oh, and you're going to miss me when I'm gone. (hehe)

    Christian is a word that only appears twice in the scriptures.

    to bring them into Israel to make the Gentiles part of Israel .

    Prove it. This is the point that I've never been able to prove. It's just a Christian theory.

    If I had a tree I could demonstrate. I am picturing a little movie of a tree. The arrow points at the root, and labels it "Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or the Father's of the Promise of Faith" (the seed that was planted first made roots). Then it would show the branches. Twelve. Ten then are Israel, and two then are Judah (by tribes). After the branches have their little twigs growing off of them you strip away most of the branches. (It was only a partial hardening. Israelites the land but they didn't die. They end up later in places like Roma, Galatia, Corinth...) Then you graft in (grab some super glue or duct tape) new branches representing all the nations, tribes, people and tongues. Incidentally to actually graft you attach it to the stock or base of the tree/vine. You can't graft a branch to a branch.

    He was definitely the most radical Jewish theologian. He redefined what Jewish Christians understood of the old covenant scriptures.

    However, the story of how this all happens isn't news, its just still isn't understood. It's written in the old covenant scriptures.

    Hitting send. I can, and am incrediably passionate to continue this discussion. I'm mostly interested in what—if anything—caught anyones curiousity, made them blink or think twice, whince, react in any kind of way, or what questions arise.

  • tec

    (Psst... Jacob is Israel.)

    As to the rest, I am not certain of the point or that it matters (though I do not begrudge anyone discussion, indeed have at 'er)... so I have been reading, but refraining. Though I do certainly agree with you regarding your chart on the page before: 'insert name' -> Christ -> God.



  • nibbled

    Up top is Abraham. We are his adopted kids, as we are faithful children and he is the Father of Faith.

    Abraham is not Israel.

    Down here are the children of Israel. Later they become two separate kingdoms: Judah and Israel.

    I believe that all Israel is saved because after all the adopted children are accounted for, then the partial hardening is lifted and the punishment is lifted off the errant children.

    I don't usually mention this because it seems to muck up the whole thing, since most people don't even recognize a distinction between the Jews and the Israelites, but I also happen to believe that dispersed Israelites also became Christians and were present in the first century congregations. Their forefather's didn't worship in Judah, but they were raised with the same stories of the patriarchs and that one day the "Messiah called Christ" would come.

  • tec

    Perhaps I have a hard time following because I have never heard anyone call themselves the Israel of God.

    People are not brought into the old covenant though (they can be, but Christ is not there, and so LIFE is not there). But all who put their faith in Christ can be part of the new covenant with Him... Israel AND Gentile. No longer two, no longer divided, these are ONE in Christ.



  • nibbled

    Hi @tec!

    Have you ever heard of people referring to "the true Church", or as being "spiritual Israel" or "spiritual Jews" even though they are not of Jewish or Israelite descent? The "true Church" is the theory that Christians replace Israel; Israel had to suffer all the punishments, but if they were promised any blessing, those belong to "the true Chruch".

    I don't believe the theory. Though as far as I have found, each denomination of Chrisitanity teaches their variation.

    Did God reject his people? No.

    Paul said, "God forbid!" Romans 11:1, in some translations. :)

  • nibbled

    Heya Tammy I just scrolled up and saw that I must have been posting when you were. I missed your first message.

    Yup. Jacob is Israel, but he's not an Israelite. He's the father of the Israelites.

    I know it seems like such a small nuance to not worry about, but it seems that there is terrible violence done to the scriptures or word of God through "death by a thousand papers cut".

    I'd like to discuss topics such as the multitude of nations that would come to be of Abraham and Sarah. The wonder I have that God has managed, by fact, not fiction, to have a fulfillment that is both literal and figurative. The children of faith, the seed of Abraham, through adoption by spirit, fulfill the multitude of nations—but it seems since people don't recognize that the Jews are a fraction of the whole of Israel, I can't even begin to talk about that Israel was kicked out of the house but didn't die. What did they do? They spread their seed all over the sea of mankind, popping out babies like rabbits, and migrating all over the world. Judah became the Jews and we know them today. They know who they are, and we can even spot them through their common physical characteristics. We can't say the same of those of northern Israel, the ten-tribes of Hosea's prophecy.

    Irony is Paul points out to those Jewish rabble rousers that Elijah was told by God that yet Israel had 7,000 elect when Elijah made the same assumption as must people I know—Israel doesn't yet exist (spiritually or literally speaking). And, Paul also points out that Hosea said that he'd have mercy on Israel, and where he said to them that they were no longer his people that he'd call them the sons of God.

    After finishing my first time reading the whole scriptures 90 day marathon reading, I was wide eyed in wonder. (Though I do have small eyes, and I didn't check the mirror, I imagine I was wide-eyed!)

    The story is amazing. More so, and what sent me on first a deep dive into researching over the past year the first time I've ever been anti-social in my life, was digging through the scriptures to see if what I thought I'd read was really so. Yup. It's there. Then I went to the internet to start trying to see what the world thought. I found somethings were known, but it seems only crazy kooks know them. (Not boding well for me!) Then I decided to try to figure out how to take the 66 chapter (books) of the scriptures and distill it down into a "cliff notes" version, so maybe I could have people to talk with. First bringing them up to speed, and then we could work through it together. I'm still sitting the mode of — oh, my God! is it really so?!

  • tec

    The "true Church" is the theory that Christians replace Israel;

    Gotcha. I hear you, thank you for taking the time to condense that for me ;)

    No, God did not reject his people. He does not break His promises. All Israel will be saved. Just not all ruling as kings and priests with Christ... because they rejected him and that offer, though the promise was first offered to them. Then that promise opened up to all others (go into the streets and invite everyone, since those I invited refused to come)

    144000 of Israel (from every tribe) - PLUS - the great crowd of from every nation, culture, language, tribe = the Body/Bride of Christ. One creation, no longer separated, now made one in Christ.



  • tec

    And yes, the Jews are only a fraction of Israel. We are in agreement here.



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