i would consider many brothers in christ,but i dont agree with there way of baptism!
Does an "all knowing" God have the leisure of choosing not to know something?
by wannabefree 51 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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blondie
The WTS says he has the power but CHOOSES not to exercise it. No scriptures, just their wild form of "logic."
*** it-1 pp. 853-854 Foreknowledge, Foreordination ***
Selective foreknowledge means that God could choose not to foreknow indiscriminately all the future acts of his creatures. This would mean that, rather than all history from creation onward being a mere rerun of what had already been foreseen and foreordained, God could with all sincerity set before the first human pair the prospect of everlasting life in an earth free from wickedness. His instructions to his first human son and daughter to act as his perfect and sinless agents in filling the earth with their offspring and making it a paradise, as well as exercising control over the animal creation, could thus be expressed as the grant of a truly loving privilege and as his genuine desire toward them—not merely as the giving of a commission that, on their part, was foredoomed to failure. God’s arranging for a test by means of “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” and his creation of “the tree of life” in the garden of Eden also would not be meaningless or cynical acts, made so by his foreknowing that the human pair would sin and never be able to eat of “the tree of life.”—Ge 1:28; 2:7-9, 15-17; 3:22-24.
*** w06 6/1 p. 25 par. 17 Jehovah Tells “From the Beginning the Finale” ***
Jehovah apparently chose not to foresee what Adam—and Eve—would do, even though He has the ability to know everything in advance. It is therefore a question, not of whether Jehovah can foresee the future, but of whether he chooses to do so. Furthermore, we can reason that Jehovah, being a God of love, would not knowingly and cruelly predetermine that rebellion—with all its sad consequences—should take place. (Matthew 7:11; 1 John 4:8) Thus, as far as Jehovah’s exercise of foreknowledge is concerned, it is selective.
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Satanus
Willful ignorance. Negligence based on ignorance. In other words, wt god makes the willful decision to be ignorant of something which he knows could be harmful. On that basis, he could be found to be negligent in a court of law. For a human, there could be some defence. For a god as great as the wt god is uspposed to be? Nope. Methinks, in the case of universal soveriegnty, jehovah vss satan, if it went to court, satan may well get off. Jehovah may be found guilty of mischief against his progeny.
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2+2=5
The WT has used an illustration about a really strong man to explain how Jehovah chooses not to know everything.
It goes something like . . . . Just because this strong individual has the ability to move very heavy items, this does not mean that he will pick up every heavy thing he sees. He can choose when to exercise his ability. Similarly, Jehovah can choose when to use his ability. . . . .
Not a terrible illustration on the surface, but if given any thought, it does not make sense.
I can remember at the field service group years ago we were discussing this magazine before we went out. There was an old sister who highlighted this illustration and commented how brilliant it was. Gotta love that faithfull slave and that awesome spiritual food.
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EntirelyPossible
No.
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sseveninches
Notice the weasel word, "apparently". The same word they use to excuse the bible contradiction of how Judas died.
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Larsinger58
Actually, the CHOICE God has is to create freedom of choice and free moral agency or not. After deciding to create free moral agency, he can look into the future and see what happens.
As far as all the pain and suffering and whether God would still make the choice he did, the answer is, of course he would! That's because the pain and suffering is incidental to billions of humans attaining everlasting life and the opportunity to rid the universe of Satan.
So think of it this way. In heaven before man was created, there was no way to express SIN. That is, it is all consciousness, all IDEAS and CONCEPTS. Think of Satan as being like a bankrobber at heart in a world where there are no banks. God could see Satan was this bankrobber at heart, so to allow Satan to put money where his mouth was, God created some banks for him to rob. Of course, he couldn't wait to rob the banks. Only the tables were turned because the gold in the banks wasn't real.
In reality, God saw how corrupt Satan had become because of his personal beauty. The closest thing we know in our culture of a Satanic personality would be a Nazi. Someone who thinks highly of himself and believes lesser forms of life should be exterminated. So Jehovah determined that Satan was a "mayslayer" from the beginning, but there were no men for him to slay. It was all corrupt ideas and emotions. So God created man to give Satan the chance to become a manslayer, thereby commiting a SIN via which Satan could be legally and rightfully put to death. Unfortunate for mankind, except God also created the "ransom sacrifice" to undo Satan's murderous deed. That would result in years of pain and suffering for mankind, but it was worth it. Man would be born in sickness and death over 6000 years, but that would give them a chance for eternal life on Judgment Day.So the pain and suffering of mankind is worth it on two levels, (1) in that this entitles him to eternal life later on, and (2) it was worth the price if Satan could be legally put to death.
So far from God withholding "foreknowledge", God planned this very carefully. God set a trap for Satan and Satan fell right into that trap. How as Satan tricked?Well, it turns out, the concept of DEATH is a profoundly horrible concept, but only if it is PERMANENT! But if you are only going to be dead for 45 minutes and then come back to life, how bad is it? Satan was motivated by thinking he was destroying mankind permanently and was glad to die as well. We hear about these sick mass murderers, who kill lots of people and then kill themselves! That's like Satan. Satan knew he would be executed for killing mankind but his vindictiveness and hatred for mankind and God was his emotional payoff. Only he thought he was killing those God and Christ loved permanently, murdering them. Only God turned the table on Satan and the death of billions of mankind was only temporary. By contrast, the death Satan would undergo would be PERMANENT. In the overall general scheme of things, the only ones Satan really kills permanently are those wicked whom God would have executed anyway. The truly righteous and innocent get eternal life in a Satan-free world.
Even so, this in no way is predestination. Freedom of choice and free moral agency are not affected. Just because Jehovah can look into the future and see what choices you make doesn't mean you are not making those choices. But there is one caveat, of course! By nature, if you know what will happen in the future, you tend to want to change it, right? So God just doesn't tell you what choices you will make in the future until you actually make them.
But for those who can advance further, it does get a little tricky for the elect. That is, what happens once you are SEALED into the kingdom and you get your crown! Is it a guarantee that you will remain faithful? Well, that's a good question. The elect are still imperfect, so can't Satan really work hard to cause them to sin? Well, the DECISION Jehovah made in this regard is t temporarily make those who are SEALED to no longer be under the LAW. So that means, they can't SIN any more. Where there is no law, there is no sin! So where's the temptation?
But it is very effective. Case in point, I'm of the elect and I'm no longer under LAW. I've been sealed and my seat is guaranteed me in the kingdom. But what if I "sin" sometime between now and Armageddon? Well, good question. Satan would want to play that game. So God just removed me from under the Law and thus it's not a sin for me to say commit fornication or engage in homosexuality. This is likely to be temporary, because God has his standards, but in the meantime, it is impossible for me to be tempted by anything otherwise immoral.
For instance, I just went down on one of my friends here in town. I did it to make the point. It didn't necessarily mean I enjoyed it or I did it out of weakness or temptation. It just emphasizes that "Jehovah is Our Righteousness" and Jehovah decides what is a sin and what isn't. But for those whom I've claimed I'm the Christ in person, they can never get past that, which is God's intent. I'm to be the Christ "in the clouds" and that means, in an indirect way. Now I'm the Christ in person directly to others of the elect, but they understand all this and as part of their disguise often lead otherwise immoral lives as well as part of their front. So we can celebrate Christmas, celebrate birthdays (not that that is a "sin") or have sex with womever we want to. It creates as "chasm" between us and those who are still under law. But those who are not under law know I'm the Christ and understand all this. They understand to accept me in secret. In fact, the only person who has acknowledged me publicly as the Christ was out of necessity. The person who took the picture of the "sign of the son of man" in 1998 acknowleged me publicly as the messiah, but I needed a witness to when the photo was taken. If I came up with a photo on my own, it would have been totally worthless and unbelievable, so a second witness was necessary to confirm the time and circumstances of this miracle. But other than that, my followers acknowledge me secretly.For instance, sometimes they want to bow down to me, so they just drop something on the ground in front of me which forces them to pick it up, thereby bowing down to me. But for an outsider, it just looks like someone dropped something and picked it up. It's all secretive and hidden from Satan's agents. But the two worlds can't mix anyway. It's just to mind boggling.
For instance, Paul and John, per the Bible, never died. Well, they didn't! I've seen them both! How can anyone handle that. And what their lives be like if they "came out" and identified themselves, perhaps producing evidence they were alive through the centuries (which might happen down the road, BTW, we'll see!) People would freak out. So it's just for the elect to know among themselves. Many people want to see me in person, of course, that is, many of the elect. So this is afford by me by making myself more available to the public; like going to the movies or gambling in casinos or singing in karaoke bars.
Anyway, far from God choosing not to look into the future, think of God as being a master manipulator of the future so that things turn out the way he intends, but without robbing one of freedom of choice. Sometimes that means not telling YOU what you will be doing in the future, but it doesn't hurt him to know.
But is this predestination? Well, if you give someone a CHOICE to worship you or not, that implies that you already know some will CHOOSE not to worship you. That's a given. But that doesn't mean you've made that choice FOR them. It's a matter of percentages. But since people are happier when they feel they have made a choice, it's worth it.
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unstopableravens
you cant argue with jesus!
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PSacramento
You can argue with Jesus and God, sure why not?
You can even try to "haggle" with them.
You may get your way or be rebuked.
Only one way to know.
As for the OP, The "only choice" God made was this:
God gave us free will and the choice to do what we want, to say to God, "They will be done" or to say to God, "I'll handle this without your help", or to say, " You don't even exist".
God then says to us, "Thy will be done..."
God doesn't choose to "not know", God chooses to allow US to choose.
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unstopableravens
ps i was referring to lars/jesus ,why cant ppl tell when im joking?lol