JWs say it's my fault I didn't go to university ?!

by ekruks 51 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill

    "It might have been my decision, but at the time I did not feel like I had any other options but go pioneering."

    That is exactly how I felt when the twerps got me to abandon my apprenticeship, almost 40 years ago to the day.

    (Down in this part of the world at least, they took the 1975 hype to the point where they even stopped kids from entering into an apprenticeship).

    After that time, I also have had some of them try and tell me that it was my choice, and mine alone. The same ones, (of course!) still had the daggers out for me when I resumed the apprenticeship as an adult some seven years later.

    "Your choice" - I say it was Hobsons Bloody Choice!

    Bill.

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    ERUKS:

    I am sorry you were told the equivalent of "I'm sorry you believed it" by another JW no less. What about people who lost their lives following JW teachings?

    What a cruel tragedy this religion is, and nobody is accountable it seems. Best thing I ever did was walk OUT!

    (All you lurkers better take heed!)

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    JW - It's your fault, you didn't need to pioneer, you chose to, but could have been like other brothers who don't [put the Kingdom first]

    Me - It's expected for a brother to reach out. I was only doing what the Watchtower encourages.

    JW - You have to use common sense! Don't just do what you are told.

    Me - If I can pick and choose which bits to follow, and ignore some, I could just ignore all the Watchtower !

    JW - You made the problem for your self by taking what people say too seriously.

    Just a thought, but is this JW someone who is "awake" to the games of the WTS and was trying to tell you (not knowing your true thoughts), to not take the JWs so seriously and live your own life?

    In other words, another fellow inside "apostate"?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    If the Witnesses were not so controlling over every aspect of life and breed deference, it would be your choice. I believe the statements should be viewed in the context of the religion. I was born-in. Growing up, so much was regimented by the WTS or some weird Bethel culture my father assimilated. My mom had to sneak us in to get vaccines. She forged my father's signature. My brother has cerebral palsy, which is not genetic. Many cases are caused by men attacking their pregnant wives and causing brain damage. My mother had to alert the school to possible kidnappings. He would kill us to prove his male majesty.

    My mom told me not to fear 1975 b/c she lived through two prior dates. One time she was old enough to know that family friends sold all their assets, homes, all to go up on some hill to wait for Christ. They all returned, utterly ruined. I was so afraid lest I celebrate Christmas in my heart and die at Armageddon. Later, mom told me Christmas was celebrated at Bethel. She personally saw the Christmas tree. A Christmas tree! And they were told that WT lit made great Christmas gifts.

    I was present when Freddy Franz opined about 1975 at Yankee Stadium. A normal person would conclude he was pompous and opiniing. I was not a normal person. My family told me he had a special relationship with Jehovah. Freddie was very brilliant b/c he attended some run of th emill seminary. Oh, no one else in the world had Freddie's knowledge. NO scientist at MIT, Harvard, CalTech. He never spoke as a fellow believers. No, he was way above us. IN fact, President Knorr was dismissed by my family. I heard 1975 with my own ears. I was 14 and embarassed by reference to Eve's menstrual cycle. Believe it or not, there was no mention of menstruation in public discourse. Certainly, if I had the legal education I now have at fourteen, I may have noticed some qualifications. Witnesses misread his statement. My argument to that is Bethel had clear notice of 1975 ardor/panic. They did not stop it. A few sentences from Bethel would have quelled the enthusiasm.

    You made the best decision you could given the information you had at the time. I will point that even today elders ae not taught to consult a lawyer to represent their interests, which are theoretically adverse to the WTS. No, they are told to call WT Legal. This would not bother me if all elders were sophisticated users of legal services. If they were, I doubt they would be elders.

    If you made a mistake, I made a mistake not learning to dance at eleven or twelve. Popular music, such as Frank Sinatra or Bing Crosby, was mocked. I had a huge fight with someone who was bullied and wants home schooling only. Public education gave me my only respite from the borg.

    People have put their trust in religions for thousands of years. It was not your fault that you did so. If you did it now, it would be your fault.

  • ekruks
    ekruks

    Broken Promises - no, I think they struggle with aspects of the religion and water some of it down, but other bits they take very seriously and can't cope without - basically, this is a conversation with family, and that's probably why it upset me so much - I fill they should help me to do my best, they don't. I also see siblings in full-time service without a full education, and my parents with pension because Armageddon is soon here.

    [...] on issues like education the parent has to have a role in motivating good career choices, since many teenagers aren't inclined to do it themselves. I knew other non-JW kids from my neighborhood who didn't pursue a worthwhile career, not because of being in a cult but because the parents just didn't do their job in encouraging it.

    Hi Chaserious, yes, I think kids are not generally very motivated, as they don't see the big picture, at a young age we are all naive to life, especially if isolated in a cult, some JW kids are homeschooled. I wonder why my parents, like so many JW parents, don't encourage me to study. If I made by myself the decision to go to college, well, if my parents had supported me, I could have achieved a good job. I have to put it down to the religious indoctrination, because I can't see why a parent would not want the best for their kids. Though I did notice most parents at the Kingdom hall had the attitude, "I was ok without uni, so my kids will be", which I think could even subliminally be jealousy.

    BillyTheBethelite - found your post amusing.

    Blondie - oh, the pressure to remain single. I hate the attitude toward dating. I'm sure as a teenager I may not have made a good choice of wife, so parents concern would be fair, but in one's twenties it's insulting to have people meddling.

    Elders, parents, busybody sisters (who wish they were elders) being so interfering when I dated a sister, elders took me into the small hall at the Kingdom Hall and gave me a stern lecture on the benefits of singleness. Then I got caught holding my girlfriend's hand (supposedly 'girlfriend' was a worldly term that implied living in sin), and the prompt meeting with the elders, who went through a list of body parts asking which I had touched, didn't want to believe all we did was held hands and kissed, and then later elders checking up things were clean, basically ruined any romance. The irony was the elders' sons could flirt with sisters and it was accepted.

    Aware - " painting a boat that's about to sink " - well, pioneering is " painting a boat that will never float " ! Don't distract your self from studies banging doors, do homework and get a job and house Supposedly there is such a letter, some of it was read to us at a MS meeting. Whatever, when I see any young JWs I tell them to go to college and let them know how bad jobs I've had were - one agreed with me I think they remember the 75 nonsense, but ignore it, because they can't cope with life without the hope of a paradise, otherwise it's day after day of a rubbish job, perhaps family problems, ill health, and they get depressed - paradise is the light at the end of tunnel that keeps them going.

    Finkelstein - I've met Losch - people reacted like he was Jesus - he was just an old chap giving a speech; wasn't an amazing talk, for someone anointed, and when I went up to say hi, he didn't want to talk, or perhaps he was fed up with everyone wanting to shake his hand and have met the big man. I would ask him about university if I met him again

  • Sayswho
    Sayswho
    People have put their trust in religions for thousands of years. It was not your fault that you did so. If you did it now, it would be your fault.

    Well said...Thanks

    SW

  • ekruks
    ekruks

    Hey Chaserious, just psyched myself up to watch the AM3 video you made (hearing GB discouraging education is depressing).

    Well done!

    Great little video - good choice of songs with Pink Floyd (put a new meaning to that for me!) and Apl De Ap (will play this whenever I feel discouraged from education - the line "change your situation... together we can push it up the mountain... get your graduation")

    Apl De Ap http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPvpjuVIijc

    When I look at the photos you have at the start of the videos where AM3 and Losch are smiling, they look like ordinary guys, perhaps grandpas - they don't look superhuman as the term anointed is often taken to imply, with some great insight from holy spirit. Perhaps in ignorance they mean well and genuinely believe they are protecting young ones, but their argument is weak.

    AM3's comment "Philosphy 1 and Philosphy 2" makes no sense, in fact, I found it disturbing that I can give a better talk (no intention to sound arrogant, I'm sure many of you also can give a better talk!), and I know Jehovah uses all kinds of people, as he used Moses, but isn't the holy spirit meant to be on the tip of our tongue?

    I also feel it's rather cold of him to just tell the parents it's their fault if their kids leave the truth - some elder's have son who aux pioneer through uni and fine, but someone's kid leaves and they are terrible It's quite clear all he is worried about is young people leaving the truth, really scared of this ! No concern about why the truth doesn't appeal to them. We note the young brother in his example did not leave the truth because he was sex-crazed, drug-addicted, etc., but because the professor gave a better argument than the GB!!! The answer isn't sort our argument out, convince people they are right, because they can't, so instead it's hide people from other options, avoid an informed choice !

    This guy doesn't strike me as that bright - his answer to isn't a degree important for university is to say how good pioneering is - he doesn't explain how people are meant to survive financially. I suppose he is just thinking like many JWs I've spoken to that many people survive everyday without degrees so they are not necessary except for increased salary and social status, which is materialistic, arrogant, etc.. The problem is some people are not that great at manual work.

  • mindseye
    mindseye

    Chaserious wrote: AM3 also gave a talk saying we are pro-education - we are just selective about who does the educating. lol... He also warned that no matter what you major in they force you to take "Philosophy 1 and Philosophy 2" and "then all of a sudden it gets in there and the intellectual gripping of the mind, very hard to recover from," and that he could tell you all kinds of "horror stories" about this kind of thing. After all, only the GB should teach you how to think, not your philosophy class. If anyone is going to be doing "gripping of the mind", it's got to be the GB!

    LOL! By "horror stories" he must mean taking a Philosophy class and learning critical thinking. One can also take a comparative religion course to get a balanced view of the world's rich religious traditions, and discover that the superficial 'spirituality' of the witnesses does not stack up. Oh, and a student is also required to take in-depth biology courses that prove evolution (AM3 mentions it made someone an "evolutionist", oooh scary!). AM3 and company are right about one thing - college leads most thoughtful people out of the "truth" - he forgot the part that it also leads to a more fulfilling life (and not just financially)!

  • likeabird
    likeabird
    I am merely suggesting that adopting the attitude that you are always responsible for your own decisions as an adult, is the way to heal from being at the tit of a group of people that teach you the opposite. You can't take that mentality and give it a starting point. It has to be adopted universally, which means YOU decided not to go to college. the reasons are irrelevant. NOW YOU decided to go to school because you want to. Regret is meaningless and a waste of energy.
    ~Problem Addict
    I wish I had been to university when I was a teenager, and put all that pioneer time into studying hard for a good grade, get a good job, and if I had wound up tired as I am now, at least I would have been paying into a mortgage on a home and pension.
    ~Ekruks

    Amen to you both!

    While I totally agree with the idea of regret - it's the way I approach life, I still totally regret having wasted my best years to a publishing company. I literally gave up everything for them and I am very angry inside. However, as soon as I discovered the TATT I channelled that anger and regret into getting myself a future and immediately got into school.

    I got the exact same reaction as Ekruks when I mentioned that university was frowned upon when I left school:

    JW: Yes, but you were free to go to university if you wanted to. No one was stopping you. We would have totally supported whatever decision you made.

    Me: I understand that, but when you're young and going to meetings three times a week, being exposed to repetitive information such as "education is bad/temporary", "the end is coming", "pioneering is the key to happiness", "make Jehovah's heart happy", "trust in Jehovah, he will take care of you" etc, etc, what decision do you expect a young person to make?

    JW: Hmmm...

    Me: So no, I don't think the decision was totally mine to make.

    JW: So do you regret having pioneered?

    Me: It's not a question of regret, what is done is done. It's a question of having access to information and being able to make properly informed decisions. If that had been the case, I wouldn't be in the difficult situation I face today.

    In any case, talking about twisted thinking, this became even more evident a few months later when I revealed I'd actually got into university and it was going really well:

    JW: Wow that's really good. You see, Jehovah is really blessing you now for all those years you spent pioneering. Jehovah's blessing is rich! [Repeated several times during the conversation for emphasis]

    Me: [Facepalm]

  • designs
    designs

    Blondie- you just gave me flashbacks to 40 years of hearing and reading their garbage. We could work part time and pioneer and become an MS, we could work part time and go to college and not be appointed grrr.

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