by The Searcher 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    This is a sincere request to any brothers or sisters who are fearful of websites such as this;

    please imitate the Beroeans who carefully examined the Scriptures to see if what the apostle Paul said was the truth. They were described as being "noble minded" for doing so!!

    Follow their example by asking yourself questions, such as;

    1. I'm counselled and direct by the Organisation to go out in Field Service as often as I can, to discuss my Bible-based beliefs with people who are in "false" religions, so why does the same Organisation prohibit me from doing the exact same thing with my brothers & sisters? (Kingdom Ministry - Sept. 2007 - Question Box, p.3)

    2. If "all Scripture is inspired by God", why does the Insight Book 2 p. 130 state " Luke’s presentation of this incident evidently is not in strict chronological order" - thereby discrediting Luke's inspired opening statement at Luke 1:1-4, where he states that although many had compiled facts about Jesus and his ministry, he (Luke) had done so with accuracy, and in logical order!

    3. If "alien residents" could not become participants (only beneficiaries) of the Law Covenant because they were not "natural Israelites", then why were Rahab and Ruth (both pagan worshippers) assimilated into God's nation and allowed to corrupt the Messianic lineage?

    And finally, the simplest and easiest question/s which actually demand 3 answers -

    4. Where in the Bible does it -

    a) mention "new" scrolls? (Revelation 20:12a) Are they "new"?

    b) What will these scrolls be used for? (Revelation 20:12b) For wonderful new teachings?

    c) When will these scrolls actually be opened? (Revelation 20:7-10) During Christ's 1000 year reign?

    Do as the apostle John was inspired to write - "test the inspired expressions, to see if they originate with God."

  • NeonMadman

    Good questions, except #2 and maybe #3, I think. With regard to question #2, logical order and chronological order are two different things. It would be perfectly logical, for example, to rank events in order of their importance, but that would not necessarily be chronological order. The fact that both words contain "logical" doesn't imply that they mean the same thing. I don't see any conflict between Luke's opening statement and the passage you cite from the Insight book.

    As far as Rahab and Ruth, there is no implication in the Bible or in WTS literature that their presence "corrupted" the Messianic lineage. They were proselytes to the worship of YHWH, which carried a different status than that of the "alien resident." The proselyte was regarded as essentially having become a Jew; male proselytes would be circumcised, proselytes could engage in worship with the Israelites, even attending the Temple. Wikipedia (granted, not always the most scholarly source, but good as a quick reference) makes the following distinction:

    There are two kinds of proselytes in Rabbinic Judaism:

    1. Ger tzedek (righteous proselytes, proselytes of righteousness, religious proselyte, devout proselyte)
    2. Ger toshav (resident proselyte, proselytes of the gate, limited proselyte, half-proselyte)

    A righteous proselyte is a Gentile who has converted to Judaism, is bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy, and is considered a full member of the Jewish people. They are to be circumcised as adults (different from Brit milah) and immersed in a mikvah should they wish to eat of the Passover sacrifice.

    A gate proselyte [5] is a "resident alien" who lives in the Land of Israel and follows some of the customs. They are not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the whole of the Torah. They are bound only to conform to the seven precepts of Noah, the Noahide Laws: do not worship idols, do not blaspheme God's name, do not murder, do not commit immoral sexual acts, do not steal, do not tear the limb from a living animal, and do not fail to establish courts of justice to be assured of a place in the world to come.

    If Rahab and Ruth were of the first category, which I would assume was the case, it hardly seems that their presence in the Messianic line would be seen as a corrupting influence. In fact, it was not, because King David was also descended from these women, and no Jew would have questioned his credentials. Obviously, Rahab and Ruth were regarded as full members of the nation of Israel after their conversion.

    That said, the other questions are excellent ones, and I'll be interested to see if any active JWs have a response to them.

  • rosesinbloom

    Thank you Searcher for starting this thread....good questions.

    and thank you neonmadman for thoroughly answering 2 of them.

    Godd Day!

  • The Searcher
    The Searcher

    @ neonmadman

    Thanks for your detailed research. It serves to further nail the falsehood perpetuated that only "natural" Israelites were party to the Law Covenant.

    At Mount Sinai, the Bible account tells us that all of the people agreed to be party to the Covenant mediated by Moses. The vast mixed crowd who followed the Israelites out of Egypt were not segregated so that a vote could taken by "natural" Israelites.

  • TeenageInsider

    This needs to be BUMPED back to ACTIVE TOPICS.

    ACTIVE JW's need not be fearful of this site! Click away! :)

    Learn Learn Learn!

    Your Welcome Here!


  • prologos

    Searcher: thank you: if all ofthe mixed multitude came into the law covenant, then the 12 tribes of the ISRAEL of GOD in Rev.7 , that are in the NEW COVENANT could be of all nations too? then, since all were sprinkled with blood to establish the law covenant should not ALL members of the twelve tribes (including its non-{spiritual }Jew component partake of the CUP of the NEW COVENANT?

    so that is question 3 a) since the mixed multitude at Mount Sinai, Rahab and Ruth become part of the Law Covenant arrangement, why should it be different for the New Covenant? why should not all Christians partake of the Cup of the New Covenant?

  • AGuest

    I realize the thread is to active witnesses only, dear Searcher (peace to you!), so please pardon the intrusion. I just want to respond to your second question:

    If "all Scripture is inspired by God", why does the Insight Book 2 p. 130 state "Luke’s presentation of this incident evidently is not in strict chronological order" - thereby discrediting Luke's inspired opening statement at Luke 1:1-4, where he states that although many had compiled facts about Jesus and his ministry, he (Luke) had done so with accuracy, and in logical order!

    The original Greek does not have Luke saying he wrote in "logical" order but in "chronological" (successive) order. The Greek states:

    "... to write to you in order..."

    The Greek word here is "kathexes", which means:

    "one after another, successively, in order".

    That the account WAS written in successive (and thus chronological) order is important because Luke most clearly sets out that Judas was present at the last meal. He had to be, of course, in order for the covenant to be made with all 12 tribes... and not just 11. Based on the WTBTS' teachings, however, Judas left before that event. That is not true, though - he was indeed present; his morsel, however, was "polluted"... dipped in the sop... to symbolize HIS "pollution".

    The account, as explained the Aid to Understanding Book (from which the Insight Book takes largely) is correct; the New World Translation (as to "logical") is not. However, the Aid and Insight Books contradict the themselves... and the account... when they go on to deny that Judas was present.

    I hope this helps.

    Again, peace to you and my apologies for the intrusion.

    A slave of Christ,


  • AGuest
    if all of the mixed multitude came into the law covenant, then the 12 tribes of the ISRAEL of GOD in Rev.7 , that are in the NEW COVENANT could be of all nations too?

    Greetings dear Prologos and peace to you! This is not accurate. Israel is represented in verses 4-8. The nations are represented in verse 9. However, these are ONE flock, ONE shepherd (Israel is the "little" flock, not just the Jews - and the nations are the "other sheep" - John 10:1-17). The "great crowd" from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people are included WITH Israel in the kingship and royal priesthood. That kingship/priesthood includes people from EVERY nation, tribe, and tongue... INCLUDING Israel. (Revelation 5:9, 10) That's why they, too, are standing BEFORE the throne... and "rendering SACRED service IN GOD'S TEMPLE." Only priests can render sacred service, dear one. (Revelation 7:9-17)

    The reason Israel is numbered is so that God's promise to Abraham can not be thwarted. Israel was supposed to be a royal nation, "a people for a special possession." NOT because they were special in and of themselves, but because of the promise made to Abraham. Because of his brothers' treatment of Joseph, Joseph was sent ahead into Egypt where Israel ended up (due to the famine that occurred while Joseph was second in command). They stayed there and for about 400 years enjoyed peace with the Egyptians. And then a new Pharaoh took office. By that time, Israel had greatly multiplied... and Pharaoh was convinced they were to be feared. So, he began to severely oppress them, which caused them to cry out.

    And so God delivered them from Egypt. But no more than 3 days out they began to complain about BEING delivered... as well as oppress one another. And this tendency of Israel... to carryon with outcry when their enemies oppressed them... beg God to intervene... have Him intervene... only to have them turn around and oppress their fellow man... continued for millenia. Until, while being oppressed by Rome (and not even as bad as many of their previous oppressors)... called for the death of the One sent to release them from ALL oppression... once and for all, and forever: the Son of God.

    With that event, God turned His attention to the nations... to take out of THEM "a people for His name"... to replace Israel as His "chosen race and people for special possession." Thus, a kingdom that WOULD have solely gone to Israel was now offered to the nations. BUT... God made a vow to Abraham that He would not break. And so, 144,000 "slots" were reserved for 12,000 from each tribe (except Dan) "from among the sons of Israel", Abraham's grandson by Isaac ("Israel" was the name given to Jacob, Isaac's youngest son). To ensure this number, those who belong to it... who are literally from among the sons of Israel ("Judah", made up of the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin, and "Israel", made up of other 10 tribes)... such ones are SEALED. They are the only ones who receive a sealing... because they ensure that the promise (to Abraham, that by means of HIS seed, Isaac, the nations would bless themselves... and these are Isaac's seed... through his son, Jacob aka Israel)... IS fulfilled.

    The others, of the nations... although also "anointed" (and thus chosen to be kings and priests)... are NOT "sealed." Because they are not part of the promise to Abraham - there is no need to "seal" them because there was no promise made as TO them, not as made to Abraham. This does not make those "from among the sons of Israel" any BETTER, however, than those of the nations. The only difference between the two is that one group is solely from among the sons of Israel... and sealed to ensure the promise to Abraham is fulfilled... and the others are out of EVERY nation (INCLUDING Israel, but in addition to those who are sealed), tribe (including the tribes of Israel), tongue... and people.

    These make up ONE flock... and in the KINGDOM... there is no difference ("there is neither Jew nor Greek"). Nor is there any now. One is not greater or lesser than the other. They are only different in that some make up the group to ensure the promise to Abraham is fulfilled.

    Those of the nations are chosen because they SHOW themselves to "be Israel"... NOT on the outside, but on the INSIDE: based on having the NEW Law written on their hearts. (Jeremiah 31:31-34) They may or may not be Israel BY BLOOD. Regardless, these are those who SOFTEN their hearts so that God can write His law there. They are not numbered (and no man can number them)... because the number's fulfillment is based on time: however many get IN the "Ark" (of the [NEW] Covenant)... before God closes the Door. That Door... is Christ (John 10:9).

    For now, that Door still stands open. Indeed, he... the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:16)... and his Bride... KEEP saying, even until now:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God, which that One pours out from his innermost parts... upon any who are wishing and thirsting... FREE!"

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,


  • HintOfLime

    And with that said... please do be cautious that like most of the web, there are charlatans and manipulators here claiming all sorts of outrageous things in the pursuit of their own "humble" glory and the need for their own personal following (you will likely be PM'ed with their off-site web forum shortly where you can follow them directly outside the moderation of this forum - much the way spammers try to get people off moderated sites quickly so they can discuss their various terms.)

    Beware: A sucker is born every minute - and there are people here right now preying upon EX-JWs, unforutnately - pretending to be educators, they are actually seeking people to join their own off-shoot cults.

    I will now pretend like others that I am humble. I will now "season my words with salt" in the hopes to convert you to my cult. Woe is me.. as a genuine humble person without a personal agenda I will go around reminding everyone how slave(class)-like and humble I am... in the hopes to gain a convert.

    - Lime

    PS: I don't have my own religion, I don't want converts - please don't fall for it.

  • AGuest

    Unfortunately, the WTBTS is right about one thing, dear ones (peace to you!): there are those who WILL do whatever they can to help shipwreck your faith. And so the Internet can be scary, yes. But separating oneself from them does NOT have to mean separating oneself from God. Nor does it mean you have to join another religion to worship/know God. Really, there is no ONE to go away to; only a WHOM.

    The wonderful thing about this site is that, unlike the WTBTS/religions, in general... or, at the opposite pole, atheism... and the many, many sites dedicated to both... there are many POVs here... and you have a CHOICE. Some talk about God here... some talk against Him. Regardless, NO ONE here can tell you what or what not to believe (and given most's stint in the WTBTS... no one should); but simply let you read, weigh the evidence, and decide for yourself. Unfortunately, many TRY, as you may have just read... because they don't think you are capable of thinking for yourselves.

    You are, though. And right here on this very sight YOU can examine a plethora of beliefs or disbeliefs, teachings, opinions, positions, POVs, doctrines... whether secular, religious, both, neither, spiritual, gnostic, agnostic, scientific, theologicial, deist, theist... you name it... for yourself. And you can ask questions... even those of a bibilical, religious, or "spiritual" nature (as above)... and NO ONE here will take you to task for it. Well, no one should... and if they do, you can report it to a moderator.

    I, for one, am grateful for that. Having spent almost a score being told WHAT to believe... and what to READ so as to believe... I am no longer bound by such manipulations. You don't have to be, either. If you still are, I hope your use of this place will help you get past that.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ (but no religion),


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