So, I had a thought about wicked spirits lately...

by sd-7 47 Replies latest jw friends

  • Malsonilla

    LOL @ jamie. My transition into atheism lead me to the final frontier, the final test or proving ground as it were, to find out for myself whether supernatural claims of demons and evil spirits had any validity to them.

    I had just mind-humped myself by going up against Jehovah Himself and kicking his feckless ass all over the courtroom getting custody of my kids from their JW mother and stepfather. Nothing bad happened to me. Then a very pissed off and bitter exwife dropped off my kids and their belongings to my house because the judge had not only granted me sole custody, but also forbade her to so much as crack open a WT magazine in front of them let alone ever take them to the Kingdom Hall again. That was it. I fought the custody battle pro per against her family law scheister and of course Jehovah Himself with the courtroom seats filled with Firm-n-determined JW holding Watchtower magazines out infront of them like crucifixes to ward off vampires, and I actually beat that little bitch, Jehovah, and his followers, down . . . I was Danai Gurira with a Samarai sword slashing bitch=ass zombies, ha ha ha Just kidding, and back to my point. Jehovah became impotent before me and my own mental and emotional power and focus trumped His Almightiness.

    I would sit late at night in nothing but the glow of the tv and dvr'd ghost hunter reality shows, one episode after another with common snake oil salesmen posing as full-time plumbers moonlighting as paranormal investigators caught evp's, caught startling glimpses of apparitions (always somewhere off camera), and pulled bullshit stunts during live episodes . . . and I watched a creepy college student leading a band of loser pimple-faced kids into the homes of emotionally and mentally disturbed, mentally ill, substance abusers and alcoholics giving merit and validity to their claims of paranormal activity in their double-wides, speaking intelligently with special insight into demons under the pseudoscience of "demonology" as each episode lead us along his very private and painful lifelong struggle with a very powerful demon-stalker Belial (don't say its name out loud) who continues to follow and harass him determined to possess his soul. Vomit. finally, I embarked upon my own little paranormal investigations at locations in my own town known for heavy paranormal activity and did exactly as they did, and never once captured an evp, caught a glimpse of a spirit, caught a single misty mystical on video camera, heard or saw a single thing I could attribute to supernatural origins. Total craps. I attended and held candlelit seances eliciting any kind of contact whatsoever with spirits of any kind, then begged them to show themselves, then contemptuously demanded they show themselves, hell, I even did the ultimate and unthinkable! I went into my bathroom, stood directly in front of the mirror, turned out the light, and recited the forbidden words, "bloody mary come alive, bloodly mary come alive, bloody mary come alive!" . . . The hair standing up on the back of my neck was all for naught and anti-climatic, and all that resulted was the urge to purge my bladder of the coffee I had consumed 30 minutes earlier.

    it's all bullshit. Anyone who makes claims of supernatural experiences is either a nutter, a liar, a tweaker who has been up for days, or has been horns-waggled, or refuses to look for natural causes for their experience(s).

  • perfect1


    I AM an athiest, since even the littles gods dont really exist.

  • Apognophos

    I can relate to this topic. Growing up a JW, I too was terrified of demons. I found it difficult to fall asleep at night (but I also had an overactive imagination, and the slightest scary scene in a movie could ruin my sleep for days). Also, there was a story of a demon attack on a family member which had me convinced that they were real (even though in hindsight there was very little substance to the story).

    You know, now that I brought this up, I never did bother to ask her if she was still hearing any voices nowadays. She sometimes said dreams would come back up that I suppose she was implying were somehow connected. Interesting thought. But to my knowledge, my mom is perfectly sane, just had an abusive dad with probably undiagnosed PTSD and a drinking problem, but otherwise, fine.

    I think that it's possible for people to hear voices and still be "sane". Sanity is a slippery thing to define :-) Or else she simply had very potent dreams from time to time. Certainly I've had a couple very memorable dream experiences that seemed to come from a strange place. If I were more mystically inclined, I would probably read some deep meaning into them or believe they were a communication from somewhere other than my own subconscious.

    Anyway, you posed some questions and asked for our responses. And I have potential answers to those questions. But you won't like them! Keep in mind that I am not a JW apologist, but I am a habitual devil's advocate (which is kind of like a demon, I suppose!). Please don't take offense at this, but some of your reasoning seemed kind of shallow or elementary to me. In the interest of encouraging you to take this to a deeper level, I am going to answer you as I would have when I was a believing Witness. I hope you'll forgive me for my arrogance in doing this.

    I mean, how is it that people can hear demons, the worst things in the universe, talking to them, and yet God still won't have a conversation with us? Worse yet, rather than throwing Satan like, halfway across the universe, he manages to aim specifically for the planet Earth and throw millions and millions of demons right down here, with mankind. Was it not enough that we grow old, get sick, and die? What's the deal with that?

    Demons, as their name's origin indicates, have the goal of misleading or frightening people away from God, therefore they have little reason not to communicate with humans, especially in contradictory ways to increase their confusion. God, on the other hand, is in a position where communicating directly with us from heaven would remove any need for faith as an element of our worship. Obviously demons also shouldn't be interacting with us if their laying low could cause us to become doubtful of their existence, but if they do see someone who is already convinced of the reality of the spirit world, they have nothing to lose in harrassing or attempting to confuse them.

    And who says anyone "threw" Satan in any specific direction? Yes, the Bible says he is confined to the Earth, but this can easily be explained as the consequence of an action in the passive sense, rather than a deliberate action. We know that Satan was once able to roam the Earth and to enter heaven at will. Then he was barred from heaven in a war with Jesus. Where else is he going to spend his time now? There's nowhere else for him to go in order to interfere with God's purpose. Then you bring up the question of why we grow old, get sick, and die, and suggest that should be enough of a test. Surely you remember the account of Job? We have to be tested by Satan himself in order to prove our devotion to God; how else can we nullify the message of rebellion that Adam and Eve gave to God when they listened to Satan?

    Also, now think: there are millions of invisible spirit creatures walking/floating among us right now. Add further that if the JWs were the true religion, and the WTS' words are true, God offers no protection to individual JWs, only to the group as a whole. So...why is it that pioneers don't just get run over by cars [...]? So...why use the Internet, movies, bad association, stuff that often takes YEARS to actually have a chance at working? Knowing they probably don't have that much time left and all, why wouldn't they just start slaughtering individuals who were their enemies?

    Now here you're just not being logical. Demons are in a battle for our heart, not our soul. Turning us away from God -- our spiritual death -- is the only true victory for them. The only person it would make sense to attack would be a long-time Witness with unshakeable devotion (like my aforementioned family member). Why outright kill a Witness who will just be resurrected later, if there's still a chance to turn them from the truth and kill them forever?

    Also, you incorrectly stated that God does not protect his servants individually. We simply don't know how much protection is given them, esp. the elderly ones who the demons would most likely want to attack. One could surmise that God's goal is to lessen demonic interference to a point where we're on a level playing field. He can't 'put a hedge around us' to protect us from all badness, but, as with Job, he can at least mitigate the test conditions to a degree where we have a chance of making it through with our faith intact ("he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear").

    Again, so if we have to worry about avoiding horror movies, ouija boards, palm readers, tarot cards, video games with magic in them, etc., for fear that demons will take over our homes or our minds, how is it that reading the Bible and doing all this Christian stuff doesn't result in us hearing a voice from God?

    Remember that Jesus warned against opening our minds to demonic influence with the parable of the man whose mind was swept clean. Being under demonic influence need not mean that we hear voices -- it can manifest itself in ungodly behavior. Whereas living a Christian lifestyle puts our minds above the reach of the demons and allows us to hear God's will and to receive his holy spirit as an aid. That is as close to the voice of God as we imperfect humans in the last days can expect to hear.

    You might be wondering why 1st century Christians got to hear from God and Jesus personally, and we don't. Well, aren't we living in a materialistic, science-minded world? The fact that you're questioning the existence of these things at all is a direct result of your living in a time where scientists claim they can explain away everything supernatural. Whereas ancient man readily accepted the existence of gods and demons, and would not be shocked to hear from them, today such communication could be considered as God helping us cheat our way through the test. Satan's last broad tactic in this system is to convince people that he doesn't exist, so if God were to personally speak to you to assure you that he and Satan were real, it would eliminate a major element of the test.

    Maybe it meant something to my subconscious, but...why would a being that powerful have any trouble taking over a fragile human mind, right? It'd be easy, no magic words or names would just repel them; it's not like they just can't pronounce the name of God or something (oh wait, maybe they know the correct pronunciation!).

    We don't know what sort of protection humans have been given to resist demon possession, and whether it is innate or comes through the holy spirit, but again, God is not going to let the deck be stacked against us unfairly. Clearly some of our mental resistance depends on our conscious choices, or else Jesus would not have warned us against intentionally making our minds receptive to their influence.

    Well, I've certainly started to think maybe they're not real, after all, but...I've no interest in testing that theory in more detail. It does seem like kind of a final frontier of sorts, but...the worst I'll do is read books that might have a wizard in them or something, or play a video game with magic in it.

    So, in other words, you won't test out whether they really exist... you'll just feign disinterest and assume they don't? It sounds like they have you right where they want you. After all, if they do show themselves to you, who's to say you might not go running right back to the Witnesses, scared straight? It would be a gamble on their part to respond to you at all. Best to let bygones be bygones, for both sides' sakes.

    ...Aaaaand, I'm done. Phew, that took a lot out of me. This post brought to you by my obsessive tendency to play devil's advocate and my desire to procrastinate doing my chores. But as you can see, there are some easy counterpoints to many of your questions. Perhaps I'm being unnecessarily contentious, but it seemed like there might be some good in playing the Brother Olson (see "Falling in Truth") to your doubting Thomas.

  • Malsonilla

    perfect1, apologies. sarcasm doesn't always come across as such, and I get what you were saying now. :)

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Your mother maybe a functioning schizophrenic, also could have another kind of chemical imbalance (bi/polar)

    I once had a friend who after she gave birth lost it for a bit. She would hear voices, thought people were poisioning the food (wouldn't feed her kids), also thought a train was going in circles around her house. Her husband took her in and it turns out having the baby knocked off her chemistry. Docs put her on meds to balance out which eventually worked.

    Many who suffer from Dementia Alzhiemer's also suffer from delusional voices......

    If she's also a fanatic/unbalanced person she could really believe she's hearing voices when she's really making it up in her own mind.....but I'd check for schizophrenia......

    Note: For a long time I was so freaked out as a child, I used to think a demon was breathing on me in bed.....later found out it was an open air vent. I hated being a terrified JW child.........

    You can search the web....

  • Malsonilla

    Wait, the demons are real after all. I mean how else am I seeing ads on this forum for random products and topics I have been viewing online???? That logitech HD webcam I viewed on Amazon keeps popping up and winking at me! I just watched a youtube vid of rare Elvis concert footage and suddenly I see an ad for "Graceland Girlfriend Getaway" off to the side of this page AS I AM TYPING THIS!!!! lol wtf, Simon? Are you really tracking everyone's internet browsing?!?!?! that's a little creepy. Explain yourself, man! lol

  • perfect1

    Ghostery is a good program if those targetted ads make you nervous.

  • EmptyInside

    So,in other words,the demons helped your mother find "the truth",interesting. They need to put their presentation in the latest KM,lol.

    But,seriously,in the 80's,demon phobia was pretty much rampant. I remember all the crazy stories. I was just a kid and it terrified me. I would walk upstairs to my bedroom singing,"We're Jehovah's Witnesses,emphasizing Jehovah.

    I know some Witnesses who are still quite obsessed,and everything is demonized. It's just another reason to not go back to the religion.

  • problemaddict

    Hey SD-7,

    These are things I have thought about too. I am not an athiest, but I'm headed toward agnosticism pretty fast. Haha.

    I think God is a little less involved in our day to day lives than we would like to think. And if there are evil angels out there who would like nothing more than to pilidge rape and plunder, I guess the state of the world could lead people to think they are out there.

    I have NEVER had a spiritual experience. Good or bad. I find it interesting that only people who already seem to believe in the direct involvement of spirits both good and evil, seem to have these experiences.

    The human mind is very powerful, and little is understood about how it works. That is saying quite a bit. So our minds in many cases I believe, do this stuff for you. Why would a demon tell your mother JW's were the way to go? That seems weird for a demon to do. Why would they hold someone down for no reason and not make themselves visible? Beats me.

    Oh wait. There is a perfectly logical explanation medically for why someone could be awake temporarily and not have use of their body. Its an actual thing. But try telling the person who was freaked out and thought a demon was holding them down that it was just this event that can happen in your nervous system, and you will get shot down.

    Other peoples personal experiences in my opinion, cannot be taken very seriously in this regard.

  • Twitch
    Re: So, I had a thought about wicked spirits lately.

    Were any of them Jack Daniels?

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