The say it officially began after John's death.
Jehovah's Witnesses View of Jesus Compared to the Early Church
I wish I had come up with all that.
It's devastating to the WT position.
For those who didn't read all the way through the lengthy OP, here are Cofty's 9 main points from the NT (New World Translation):
How Early Christians Viewed the person of Jesus
1] Early Christians were WITNESSES of Jesus.
2] Early Christians BELONGED to Jesus.
3] Jesus was the focus of the BAPTISM of early Christians.
4] Early Christians wished Jesus' BLESSING on each other.
5] Early Christians had the SPIRIT of Jesus
6] Early Christians PRAISED and GLORIFIED Jesus.
7] Early Christians CALLED ON THE NAME of Jesus
8] Early Christians ADDRESSED PRAYERS to Jesus.
9] Early Christians rendered WORSHIP to Jesus.
If you say, "That can't be!" please go back and read the supporting evidence in Cofty's OP.
The say it officially began after John's death.
One wonders how they explain Paul's letters ( perhaps the most christological of all the NT) and the GOJ.
Kind of sad that even those that learned directly from John got it so wrong according to the WT.
The list of Fathers included under this title has varied, literary criticism having removed some who were formerly considered as second-century writers, while the publication (Constantinople, 1883) of the Didache has added one to the list. Chief in importance are the three first-century Bishops: St. Clement of Rome, St. Ignatius of Antioch, and St. Polycarp of Smyrna, of whose intimate personal relations with the Apostles there is no doubt. Clement, Bishop of Rome and third successor of St. Peter in the Papacy, "had seen the blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul] and had been conversant with them" (Irenaeus, Adv. Haer., III, iii, 3). Ignatius was the second successor of St. Peter in the See of Antioch (Eusebius, Church History III.36) and during his life in that centre of Christian activity may have met with others of the Apostolic band. An accepted tradition, substantiated by the similarity of Ignatius's thought with the ideas of the Johannine writings, declares him a disciple of St. John. Polycarp was "instructed by Apostles" (Irenaeus, op. cit., III, iii, 4) and had been a disciple of St. John (Eusebius, op. cit., III, 36; V, 20) whose contemporary he was for nearly twenty years.
I was just thinking about how to present this to a JW.
It's pretty lengthy, and JWs are used to short WT articles that make only one or two points that turn into WT mantras.
How do you think a person could actually get a JW to confront this and think about it without their minds refusing the input and simply reciting WT proof texts about Jesus that really don't answer any of the points Cofty has brought out?
Thanks Cofty. I'm meeting with my dad on Thursday...I don't know how the conversation will go...but if he tries to take it 'there', then this might be the direction I steer it.
It'll be the first time in about 18 months that I've seen him. Anxious and a bit nervous, but I'm really looking forward to it...with zero expectations. ;)
Enjoyed this, and may use parts as "talking points" with my wife. Your post really points out the huge gulf between the witness perception of Jesus and what the bible actually says. I'm also interested in discussing the vast difference between what my wife believes "the Truth" is and what is actually taught. They really hardly resemble on another.
Mythreesons - Will be thinking about you on Thursday, I hope that goes well.
Thank you Cofty. This one item stuck out from section 8] Early Christians ADDRESSED PRAYERS to Jesus and I am still shaking my head that I never caught it before.w/09 12/15 p.17 par. 10 Whatever its nature, Paul did what he could to remove this affliction, praying to Jehovah for relief. How often did Paul entreat Jehovah about the matter? Three times. After the third time, God revealed to Paul that the “thorn in the flesh” would not be removed miraculously. Paul accepted this fact and concentrated on serving Jehovah fully.—Read 2 Corinthians 12:8-10.
w/11 1/15 p. 24 par. 10
So whenever we feel tired or discouraged, we should be more determined than ever to petition Jehovah for his protective help and holy spirit.—2 Cor. 12:8-10.
2 Corinthians 12:8-10 In this behalf I three times entreated the Lord that it might depart from me; and yet he really said to me: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me. Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in cases of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ.
Good Lord! Talk about blind guides.... not to mention blind followers.
You are still dealing with mythology, a story that has entraped billions. If you 'entreat the Lord (Jesus)' or think he has 'power' where have you made any progress in your lives.
Designs - Its about helping honest JWs to think about their beliefs.
Try telling them that all supernatural beliefs are based on a myth and see how long you hold their attention.
Show them from the NWT that the early church had a very different relationship with Jesus than they do and maybe they will wonder why.