Does God's foreknowledge take away from free will?

by Christ Alone 317 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  EntirelyPossible

  That's every bit as valid a thought experiment as the ones I listed earlier.

  Not really, because the very act of time travel may be what sets the future in an un-alterable state, or cause the event to happen in the first place. You are unable to separate the experiment from the result. There is no way to verify or falsify the validity of the thought experiment. And there is no conclusion that can be mathemathically or logically reached, it's just "whatever I want the answer to be". There is no "experiment" aspect to it at all.

  You are quoting it as an authority on the subject, and alleging that an absence of the mention timelessness renders the argument a joke. That tactic is a joke to me, unless you are a person who believes in the Bible as the sole source of truth on these matters. I do not subscribe to that view.

  It's not a tactic. The "God knows everything" crowd is attempting to use it to prove their point. It's fair game to use it to show what they claim about God is not actually what the Bible says. It's source material.
• 

  botchtowersociety

  Not really, because the very act of time travel may be what sets the future in an un-alterable state, or cause the event to happen in the first place. You are unable to separate the experiment from the result. There is no way to verify or falsify the validity of the thought experiment. And there is no conclusion that can be mathemathically or logically reached, it's just "whatever I want the answer to be". There is no "experiment" aspect to it at all.

  That's much better than what you stated earlier, because it is actually an argument. For your objection to work, however, you'd have to assume that the time travel could cause the observed event to occur. For the purpose of my thought experiment, I am assuming it does not.

  It's not a tactic. The "God knows everything" crowd is attempting to use it to prove their point. It's fair game to use it to show what they claim about God is not actually what the Bible says. It's source material.

  You directed the comment at me, and I had not attempted to use it in any way.

  Either way, to get back on the topic, as several have stated earlier, knowledge does not necessarily mean cause.

  Anyway, here is a pretty exhaustive coverage of the different arguments (for a web page):

  http://www.iep.utm.edu/god-time/
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  That's much better than what you stated earlier, because it is actually an argument. For your objection to work, however, you'd have to assume that the time travel could cause the observed event to occur. For the purpose of my thought experiment, I am assuming it does not.

  Ah, now you are getting it. Construct the rules in which the thought experiement can occur and THEN we can have a meaningful discussion.

  And I did write a lot of that earlier to Christ Alone when HE brought the same idea up. So, is the future alterable at all once you have been to the future and seen James waxing his car? Is is possible that he could EVER decide to NOT wash the car?

  You directed the comment at me, and I had not attempted to use it in any way.

  So?

  Either way, to get back on the topic, as several have stated earlier, knowledge does not necessarily mean cause.

  Knowledge doesn't necessarily mean cause, no one has ever been arguing that. Get on topic. It's GOD knowing that we are discussing.

  See! You can use "get on topic" to give yourself a sense of fauxthority on ANY comment that is not 100% related to the OP. I recommend trying on someone that might fall for it.
• 

  botchtowersociety

  Knowledge doesn't necessarily mean cause, no one has ever been arguing that.

  It is implied in your statement:

  If God knowing the future means it cannot be changed, then you have no choice, you MUST choose what God has forseen.

  God's knowing the future forces no choice.

  It's GOD knowing that we are discussing.

  And how does that change anything regarding my former statement?
• 

  Knowsnothing

  God's knowing the future forces no choice.

  It seems to me like Schrodinger's cat. If you don't ask God about your personal future, he will correctly forsee it. If you were somehow able to question it, and he respond to you, you would obviously change course, just to prove God wrong, though you cannot, because God is immutable. At the end of the day, a paradox would result, and you would end up doing the very thing you set out not to do.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  It is implied in your statement:

  You are seeing things that are not there.

  God's knowing the future forces no choice.

  No one is arguing that. It removes all choice.

  And how does that change anything regarding my former statement?

  Because the time traveler is not God. If so, then that makes all of us God since we all travel through time, sometimes at different rates.
• 

  tec

  I'm not going to get into the time traveling thing.

  The answer to the OP title is, no.

  There is no reason for that answer to be yes.

  I know that my child will choose to NOT do his homework, if given a choice between that and video games.

  Me knowing his choice does not mean he has no choice. Me knowing his choice is based on me knowing HIM.

  God knows US. He knows our choices. He does not make the choices for us.

  It is the same thing as the example with my son, just on a infinitely larger scale.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  still thinking

  I know that my child will choose to NOT do his homework, if given a choice between that and video games.

  You may THINK you know that...but today he may have motivation to choose differently. So in fact, you don't know, you are just guessing based on past behaviour...you cannot KNOW future behaviour or choices of someone else.

  So if it is the same thing as your son as you say...God doesn't KNOW much at all. And if he does KNOW....he has already seen the future. Which then means...the future is fixed. There is no free will.
• 

  tec

  No, actually I know. I know because I know my son. As he grows and changes, so might his choices, and he might grow faster than i can keep up. But right now, I know that he would choose the one over the other.

  So take someone who knows all the circumstances surrounding a decision, causing one to grow, including all the ways that others' decisions will cause them to interact with that person... and that knowing is far... infinitely far... better than mine. And I can still state with certainty that my son will choose the video game over the homework.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  And that is not me taking away his free will. He chooses. I just know him well enough to know his choice.

  Peace,

  tammy