Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals

by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vanderhoven7

  Does anyon e uderstand the logic to th is JW conclusion?

  How do we know when ancient Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians?

  Classical historians give mixed, conflicting details about the Babylonian kings and their reigns. Yet, scholars agree that Cyrus II conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E., a pivotal date. The Jews were released, and they arrived in their homeland by 537 B.C.E. The Bible says that their exile was 70 years long. So Jerusalem must have fallen in 607 B.C.E. (2 Chron. 36:21, 22; Jer. 29:10; Dan. 9:1, 2)
• 

  Londo111

  Classical historians give mixed, conflicting details about the Babylonian kings and their reigns.

  Berossus and Ptolemy agree. Not all records count Labashi-Marduk because he didn't even make it to his regnal year. Which matches the Uruk Kingslist. Of course, it really doesn’t matter much what classical historians from even the 3 rd century BC have to say, we could throw them all out--there's better, more direct evidence.

  The Jews were released, and they arrived in their homeland by 537 B.C.E.

  Can’t be proven from the Bible. Ezra 1:1 and 3:1 seems to indicate they arrived in 538 BC.

  The Bible says that their exile was 70 years long.

  The Bible says no such thing about the length of Exile, but gives 70 year as the length of Babylonian dominance. Of course, there were three waves of exile, one years after Jerusalem’s destruction. And if one counts Daniel—possibly one in 605 BC, making four in all.

  We need another JW apologist to step up to the plate...a real one unlike the fake "Scholar" a few months back.
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  Crazyguy

  Daniel and the other first captives would have been in captivity for over 83 years had Jerusalem been destroy in 607. Jehovah doesnt work that way, in the time of Moses when the Israelites were punished and forbidden entry in to the promise land, the 40 years were exatly from the time of leaving eygpt til entry. Also if the desolation was from the time of the destruction of the city then daniel would of known exactly how long they would be in babylon, but he did not. One other note who said they idea of taking the 7 years that Neb. ate like a cow and times it by some other number and then another number means anything at all. John A Brown came up with that idea and the math back in the early 1800's. Whos this guy, and was he demon possesed? The apostles of the first century had at thier disposal all the texts before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ce., yet they did not write down any where or in the Bible that Jesus was coming back in 1914. This idea and caculation should be put to rest as stupid musings of men.
• 

  Pterist

  **** Does anyon e uderstand the logic to th is JW conclusion Y et, scholars agree that Cyrus II conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E***

  They simply overlook what Jehovah said the 70 years means at Jeremiah 25:11-12...its about the period of time of power given to Babylon.

  11 This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

  But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation.

  Shalom friend
• 

  Crazyguy

  Exactly from 609- 539bce. end of story
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  A JW writes:

  Here is a reason why quoting Ptolemy as an "auythority" is rife with problems.
  
  He based his dating and comments on the observations such as VAT 4256. Note what Ptolemy himself had to say:

  Commenting on these factors, Professor O. Neugebauer states that Ptolemy complained about “the lack of reliable planetary observations [from ancient Babylon]. He [Ptolemy] remarks that the old observations were made with little competence, because they were concerned with appearances and disappearances and with stationary points, phenomena which by their very nature are very difficult to observe.”—TheExactSciencesinAntiquity, 1957, p. 98.

  587 is based on these observations and historical accounts absed on them such as Ptolemy's. It is "popular" not necessarily correct at all.
• 

  Londo111

  I would say to the JW: Who cares about Ptolemy? We can throw him out entirely.

  And I've looked at the planetary observations on VAT4956 via freeware astronomy software and so far they are a good match to the year 568 BC as Nebuchadnezzar's 37th year. Even throwing out all astronomical diaries, we could measure the names and lengths of each king’s rule on the thousands of economic tablets alone…and that gets confirmed with the Adad-guppi stele.

  Then comes the fact that the Bible itself does not support 607 BC...
• 

  never a jw

  I have looked at all the observations recorded on VAT4956 and applied them to both 588/587 BCE and 568/567 BCE using the same astro program the Watchtower's researchers used. Following rigorous criteria the results are zero matches for 588/587 BCE as Neb II 37th year. But I found 34 matches out of 36 for 568/567 BCE.

  The only way to get few lunar position matches for 588/587 BCE (using the WT scheme) is by ignoring the fact that you are using a fabricated calendar that is not attested by the thousands of known dated tablets, creating thus a calendar year that starts at the "wrong month" (a month late). You can get few more lunar matches by ignoring the non-visibility of the first crescent for the first day of the month on the fabricated calendar, creating thus a calendar year with at least three months that start "at the wrong day of the month" (one day too soon). Even overlooking all the trickery of the WT, the best you can do is get no more than 8 matches for 588/587 BCE.

  Regarding time intervals and planetary positions you have a 100 % success rate for 568/567 bce and 100 % failure rate for 588/587 bce.

  CONCLUSION: 587/586 BCE is the date for the fall of Jerusalem according to the Bible itself.
• 

  Pterist

  @never a JW

  Thanks for that info
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  Vanderhoven7

  Excellent answers Londo and Never. Thank you!