Jesus or Jehovah?

by Seven 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Seven

    Frenchy,waiting,SC-I'm in the same shape waiting was yesterday-too tired to think straight. If I don't get all of this paperwork off my desk I'm going to be looking for employment
    Thanks for all of your input on this topic. Every comment leads to more questions-isn't it great?

    out to lunch,

  • waiting

    Frenchy, please excuse the negative comment I'm about to give - you're comments are much better and more understandable when you post your own words rather than the Society's.

    Both give the same argument - I can just understand yours.

    I'm going to get some aspirins now.

  • Scorpion


    If translators are in disagreement on how these verses we are talking about should be translated, whom are we to belive has the accurate translation. Is it that we choose to believe one thing over another. How do we know our NWT Bible is accurate? For instance, I have not seen any Bible other than the NWT that inserts the word [other] when speaking of Christ in Colossians 1:16-20

    Can you tell me what [other] things Christ created apart from Jehovah?

  • Frenchy

    No, I don't know of any other translation that uses the word 'other' in that particular passage. The word is in brackets and so for that reason it should be noted that it is a tool used by the translator to make the wording make sense, so to speak. I know, I know... who's sense, you may very well ask? I'm not justifying it, just explaining what is happening.

    Even if the word 'other' were not inserted in brackets (which, in my opinion should not have been done) the statement there still does not even suggest a trinity.

    For by him all things were created:(NIV)

    Please note the following passage from 1 Cor 15: 26,27 below:

    27 For [God] "subjected all things under his feet." But when he says that 'all things have been subjected,' it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.(NWT)

    Now note how the NIV puts it:

    Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ

    So when we read the scripture in Colossians (written by the same author as the above) it should be understood that Christ did not create Jehovah. He created all otherthings. The word 'other' here is implied inasmuch as God has just been mentioned a few words before.

    Jehovah is the creator and he worked through his son to create all things. Therefore Christ did not create anything apart from Jehovah.
    John 5:19 (YLT)

    ‘Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth

    Thank you for your comments about using my own words, waiting. I should be doing that anyway.

  • Scorpion

    Thank you for your reply Frenchy. I am still not sure that the word other should be implied or added. I do not think the greek language intended it.

  • Friend


    For instance, I have not seen any Bible other than the NWT that inserts the word [other] when speaking of Christ in Colossians 1:16-20

    Here are some interesting variations on translation of portions of that text:

    "He is the likeness of the unseen God, born before any creature, for it was through him that everything was created in heaven and on earth…"—An American Translation, Edgar J, Goodspeed. [Italics added]

    "For by him God created everything in heaven and on earth…"—The New Testament in Today’s English Version, Robert G. Bratcher. [Italics added]

    Regarding insertions in Colossians chapter one, are you aware that most translations have made numerous insertions in that chapter? Look carefully at the text in your KJV. The italicized words are insertions.

    The question becomes, where are insertions appropriate? As Frenchy said, "Even if the word 'other' were not inserted in brackets… the statement there still does not even suggest a trinity."


    Edited by - Friend on 5 June 2000 23:57:6

  • Scorpion


    I am in no way asserting that the verse without the word [other] implies a Trinity of any kind. I myself would like to see what the original manuscripts actually said. From what I have seen on other Bible based sites, the Bibles we have, have all been written with a bias of some kind.
    As for the word [other]inserted in the NWT, I believe this to be the bias of the WT.

  • ianao

    In regards to SevenofNine's "Alpha and Omega" argument (for lack of a better word.)

    This very argument caused me GREAT dispair back when it first became an issue to me when I was studying the KJV Bible. One who reads and studies enough from this 'bible' will be left thinking that God is schitsophrenic. That goes the same for many KJV derivitives (NIV and YLT immediately come to mind). If you study from these 'bibles' ONLY the versus that a trinitarian tells you to, you will see trinity all the way through it. (especially in the book of Revelation!!!) The problem comes in when you start reading something else besides Malachi, Hosea, Acts, the Gospels, the middle of Hebrews, and the ending of Revelation. If you start looking into other books, you will inevitably come to that scripture referring to something else you've read, and if you even remember WHERE to go back and check it, you will discover: 'Lo, of God's good senses, it hath nery a tear!.'

    Seven, if you care about your sanity, you may want to stay away from a 'version' of the Holy Scriptures that translates Sheol as 'hell' in one place and 'grave' in another. I certainly don't think that wicked ones will be ressurected from 'hell', then pitched right back there on judgement day. (What would be pointless, especially since hades will be destroyed!).


  • DriveslikeJehu

    I've noticed that at times, Jesus is referred to as 'Lord.' However, Jehovah is referred to as 'Sovereign Lord.'

    Sorta the same thing as 'the Word(Jesus) was a god.' Not the God. That title would be reserved for Jehovah only.

  • Simon

    My personal opinion is that if the bible is so ambiguous and hard to interpret or translate it kinda prooves it's not been given to us by God. Surely He should have been able to provide clear instruction if it's so important to follow it? Maybe it just a load of superstitious writings and traditions of a little middle-eastern sect.

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