Jesus or Jehovah?

by Seven 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Seven

    I ran across this on truthsearcher. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this.

    Who is the "Alpha and Omega" and the First and Last"-Jesus or Jehovah?

    Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almightly." This must mean Jehovah.

    Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." The Alpha and Omega is the First and Last, so the Alpha and Omega must also be Jehovah.

    Revelation 1:10-11, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:"

    Revelaton 1:12-13, "And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; And in the midst of the seven
    candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,"

    Revelation 1:17-18 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon
    me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of heaven and of death." The Alpha and Omega is the First and Last, and the one calling Himself these things was "one like unto the Son of
    man"-but was it the Son of man?

    "I am He that liveth, and was dead..."-Was Jehovah
    ever dead? Was it not the Son who lived, then died, then rose again? Therefore, both Jehovah and
    Jesus are called the First and Last, and the Alpha
    and Omega.

    Isaiah 9:6, "For unto us a child is born, unto us
    a child is given; and the government shall be upon
    his shoulder; and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Jesus is called "the mighty God."

    Isaiah 10:21 "The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God." Jehovah is
    called "the mighty God."
    Isaiah 44:6, "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." There is only ONE God, known as the First and Last.

    Either Isaiah got it wrong, and Jesus made a false
    claim or Jehovah and Jesus, unitedly are that one
    God-the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.


  • waiting

    7, I'm too tired to think this hard - I'll let some others voice their learned opinions, then I'll think about what they have to say.

    Sometimes this religion stuff makes my eyes go crossed and I need aspirins. You think too much - that goes against the grain of being young, single, and pretty. Stop it.

  • Frenchy

    Reasoning book, page 412
    Alpha and Omega: To whom does this title properly belong? (1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In Re 1 verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in Re 1 verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy. (2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in Re 1 verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there. See NW, 1984 Reference edition. (3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6) (4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in Re 22 verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it. (5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

    Insight, vol 1 p. 80-1
    While many commentators apply this title both to God and to Christ, a more careful examination of its use restricts its application to Jehovah God. The first verse of Revelation shows that the revelation was given originally by God and through Jesus Christ, hence the one speaking (through an angelic representative) at times is God himself, and at other times it is Christ Jesus. (Re 22:8) Thus Revelation 1:8 (RS) says: “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God [“Jehovah God,” NW], who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Although the preceding verse speaks of Christ Jesus, it is clear that in verse 8 the application of the title is to “the Almighty” God. In this regard Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament (1974) observes: “It cannot be absolutely certain that the writer meant to refer to the Lord Jesus specifically here . . . There is no real incongruity in supposing, also, that the writer here meant to refer to God as such.”
    The title occurs again at Revelation 21:6, and the following verse identifies the speaker by saying: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Inasmuch as Jesus referred to those who are joint heirs with him in his Kingdom as “brothers,” not “sons,” the speaker must be Jesus’ heavenly Father, Jehovah God.—Mt 25:40; compare Heb 2:10-12.
    The final occurrence of the title is at Revelation 22:13, which states: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” It is evident that a number of persons are represented as speaking in this chapter of Revelation; verses 8 and 9 show that the angel spoke to John, verse 16 obviously applies to Jesus, the first part of verse 17 is credited to “the spirit and the bride,” and the one speaking in the latter part of verse 20 is manifestly John himself. “The Alpha and the Omega” of verses 12-15, therefore, may properly be identified as the same one who bears the title in the other two occurrences: Jehovah God. The expression, “Look! I am coming quickly,” in verse 12, does not require that these aforementioned verses apply to Jesus, inasmuch as God also speaks of himself as “coming” to execute judgment. (Compare Isa 26:21.) Malachi 3:1-6 speaks of a joint coming for judgment on the part of Jehovah and his “messenger of the covenant.”
    The title “the Alpha and the Omega” carries the same thought as “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” when these terms are used with reference to Jehovah. Before him there was no Almighty God, and there will be none after him. He will bring to a successful conclusion the issue over Godship, forever vindicated as the one and only Almighty God.—Compare Isa 44:6.

  • Seven

    Frenchy-Thank you. I'm going to do some further research on this. Different things I've read has aroused my curiosity. You know what they say about
    that internet. :)

  • Frenchy

    You're welcome.

  • Scorpion

    I have an interesting one for you Seven and Frenchy.

    Turn your NWT Refernce Bible to page 1459. See 1 Peter 3:15, now after reading it look at the reference (bottom of the page) after the asterix where it says Lord. The verse is refering to Jesus, the reference refers to Jehovah.

    Also look at page 1422. 1 Thess 4:15-16 read the verses, look at the asterix after Lord in both versus, then look at the reference on the bottom of the page.

    Is it Jehovah who is decending from heaven with the voice of an archangel? The reference says so.

    Jehovah is refereced to be Jesus in verse 15.

  • Frenchy

    1 Peter 3:15 (NWT) :

    ” 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts…”
    Footnote: “The Christ as Lord,” ABC; TR, “the Lord God”; J7, 8, 11-14, 16, 17, 24, “Jehovah God.”

    The reference in the footnote is to how some other manuscripts render that passage. Here is how some translations render that verse:

    “…the Lord God..” –Young’s Literal Translation; King James Version

    “…Christ as Lord…” – ASV; NRSVA; NIV

    There seems to be some problem with this text as to how it should be translated. Translators are apparently not in agreement as to the exact wording. So this can hardly be used to establish that Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same.

  • Frenchy

    1 Thess 4: 15-16:

    For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

    Again if you look at the footnote you will see an alternate rendering by two other manuscripts other than the one used in the NWT. If you look at other translations as well you will see that virtually without exception the “Lord” is spoken of as coming with “God’s trumpet”. What we have here is another situation where not all the manuscripts are in agreement and decisions have to be made as to how the passage will be rendered. These are not isolated instances of such anomalies.

    I grant you this, that the NWT does take a lot of liberties with the language and the grammar of the Greek text. However, a careful examination of the rendering of other translations as well as a careful consideration of the context balanced out against the rest of the scriptures usually will clear up the misunderstandings.

  • waiting

    I've read this discussion on H20, and went directly to my aspirins (and probably a beer).

    I comprehend the discussion on both sides - I really don't understand it from either. From my highly limited knowledge, it seems that these scriptures which use Alpha and Omega, and translate them as Lord, can be referring, sometimes, to either Jehovah or Jesus, depending on the Bible translator.

    Which leaves the reader in a bind - who is translating most correctly? And obviously, those who believe in a Trinity will translate their way, and those who don't will translate their other way.

    I was raised a Catholic with their form of the Trinity. Upon reading more literature -from other sources, I've been lead to believe that their are different ways of looking at the Trinity doctrine - which, HONESTLY, I have not looked into other than read the information on the web - which is a lot.

    However, I have surmissed from the way the Society teaches us, and I have no problem with that, that this is a simplistic view of the Trinity doctrine.

    I've been coming to this conclusion after reading all this stuff: hopefully Jehovah God doesn't require us to actually understand all this. In our locality, I'm actually within the top 20%, and I'm lost.

  • Frenchy

    The secret in understanding what is happening (short of spending a few years learning the koine Greek of the Bible and another few years researching manuscripts) is to learn to use several translations. These people have done exactly that. They know the Greek and they know the manuscripts.

    On the matter of Rev 1:11-- the KJV and YLT have Jesus calling himself the alpha and the omega.
    The NRSVA;NIV;ASV among others DO NOT.

    So, what does that tell you? That that passage has, over time, experienced some corruption. Scholars are not in agreement as to the correct rendering. In an argument about the trinity, this has to be left out since it is in question.

    As to the references in Isaiah cited by Seven: The fact that the messiah is being referred to as a mighty god and then Jehovah also is referred to as such does not, in any way, even suggest that the two are one let alone establish that as a fact. Peter was an apostle. John was an apostle. Peter and John were not the same person. Angels could, in some context, be properly referred to as gods. This would not make them THE almighty God. The titles 'Lord' are used to refer both to Jehovah and to Jesus. Abraham was referred to as lord. Would that make him Jesus? Would that make him Jehovah? Nope. It's just a title.

    Now the society maintains that the title 'alpha and omega' is Jehovah's exclusively. That may very well be the case. BUT even if it were used in connection with Jesus, I would still have no problem with that. In some ways Jesus isthe first and the last. He is Jehovah's first born and the onlybegotten and thus he is, in this respect, the first and the last by virtue of there being no one like him before and none like him afterwards. Neveris Jesus spoken of as being almighty or so much as equal to the father although the scriptures have Jesus stating that the father is greaterthan he is. The father never calls the son 'my god' but the son does speak of the father in such a way. The son dies. The father cannot die. The trinity doctrine says they are 'co-equal and co-eternal' and yet for parts of three days, at the very least, the son did not exist. During that time there could not have been a trinity in existence and therefore the term 'co-eternal' could not be applied to the trinity.

    Your turn.

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