I understand, dear BC (again, peace to you!). Let's take a look:
However, many others ([various comemntators listed]) believe these are angelic figures. There are no other human beings in [Rev] chapter 4,
You mean, excluding John (who was human, albeit in the spirit at the time)? I must disagree. But let's continue...
and in Isa 24:23 angels might be called "elders: (it is debated whether they are angels or the elders of Israel).
Since it's unresolved, then it should be left out. However, the Hebrew word there, zaqen, does refer to men, and particularly old men. Now I believe that spirit beings are men, too, as that term means the plural of "man" (Exodus 15:3; however, I think presuming the word here refers to old SPIRIT beings... is a stretch. (BTW, women are "men", too: a female man... or man with a womb - hence, when God/Christ refer to "earthling man"... they are referring both male AND female... men AND women. I digress.)
In Ps 89:7 (cf. 1 Kings 22:19; Job 15:8) God sits in the "council of his holy ones" (=angels).
That is not accurate, dear one. The "holy ones" are not angels - they are those of Israel called to be kings and priests in God's kingdom... or the 144,000 (Luke 12:32;Romans 1:1, 7; 11:13; 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:2; Revelation 7:1-8). Psalms 89:7 is referring to the assembly of the HOLY ONES ("saints") as those make up part of the congregation of the firstborn (Psalm 1:5; 82:1, 6, 7; 111:1; Hebrews 12:23; Revelation 1:4, 6; 5:9, 10; 19:4). 1 Kings 22:19 is referring to the GENERAL assembly... which is comprised of "armies" of spirit beings (Job 1:6; 2:1; Hebrews 12:23), "armies" meaning great numbers, not necessarily military might (and which is why His name, JaHVeH, means "JAH Who Breathes Armies (of spirit beings) Into Existence".
Job 15:8 is speaking of those in the intimate circle of JAH's council... which is neither the 144,000 or even the Apostles (the latter of whom are CHRIST's intimates). These are the "24 elders"... and they too come from the earth. You might see that in a sec.
Moreover, angels are called "thrones or powers or rulers or authorities" in Col. 1:16 (cf. Eph 3:10; 6:12),
Colossians 1:16 is referring to the "superior authorities" set in the place ON EARTH by JAH (Luke 4:5; Romans 13:1, 2). The "powers" in the spirit realm are principalities (hence, some are called "princes" but do not have rulerships THERE... because there is only one kingdom. If these were part of the kingdom rulership, how does Christ "become" king... and have co-rulers bought from the earth? The kingdom wasn't even set up/established... until Christ entered with the value of HIS blood (Daniel 2:44; Luke 12:32; John 18:36). In the meantime, various spirit beings were placed "over" certain territories... principalities... that did not make them rulers or governors, but protectors and watchers (Ezekiel 28:14; Job 1:7; 2:2; Luke 4:6; Daniel 10:13, 20, 21; Matthew 18:10; 12:15; Hebrews 1:14; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14).
and they wear white in Matt. 28:3; John 20:12; Acts 1:10.
As do ALL spirit beings, dear ones... including those bought from the earth: the holy ones (144,00) AND the great crowd (Revelation 6:11; 7:9, 13, 14; 22:14)
[Bobcat - This last argument counters the argument that they must be human because of wearing white.) The thrones and golden crowns could refer to their royal function under God similar to the way first-century kings were subject to the Roman emperor.
Actually, it doesn't. All spirit beings wear white "outer garments" or "robes"... which garments/robes represent the CLEAN body... that which is UNCORRUPTIBLE... meaning it doesn't become sick or diseased... or age... die or decay... because there is no sin or death IN it. When they are born AGAIN... in the spirit... meaning, when they put OFF incorruption (bodies with sin and death in them) and put on INCORRUPTION (bodies that are free of sin and death)... then these become "like" the angels (Zechariah 3:4-7; Luke 20:36; 1Corinthians 15:50-54)
The key is the function of the presbyteroi (elders) in the book [of Revelation]. Their primary role is that of worship (5:14; 11:16; 19:4) and praise (4:11; 5:9-10; 11:17-18; 14:3; 19:4).
Which is the same function of the great crowd and 144,000 (Revelation 7:10, 15); however, neither of these constitute the 24 elders.
In addition, they serve as intermediaries and interpreters (5:5; 7:13-17).
As did the man Moses... and the Prophets (Exodus 19:10-25; Hebrews 1:1)... something you really should keep in mind as to this issue.
A close examination of these texts shows a distinct differentiation between the elders and the saints.
This is true: these 24 are NOT the saints/holy ones...
In 5:8 they hold golden bowls that contain the prayers of the saints; in 7:13-14 one of them explains who the victorious saints are; in 11:18 they thank God for rewarding the saints; in 14:3 the 144,000 sing "a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders"; and in 19:4 they join the heavenly chorus.
Yes.
The elders are seated on thrones (4:4; 11:16), while the saints stand before the thone (7:9).
In the account stated in the 7th chapter of Revelation, yes, but the saints/holy ones... and the rest of their co-rulers (the great crowd out of the nations)... DO sit down (Revelation 20:4). Even so, they are not the saints/holy ones, no.
From this evidence it is more likely that these are heavenly beings who reign with God and are part of the retinue surrounding his throne.
Not quite.
Moreover, since "all the angels" also stand before the throne (7:11), these must be celestial beings with a ruling function.
And here is the thing: above you say that it CAN'T be the saints/holy ones... because they are standing BEFORE the throne. Here, you state that ALL angels ALSO... STAND BEFORE the throne. So, if standing BEFORE the throne negates the saints being such elders, then on the same premise, they can't be angels, either. Yet, you state:
[Bobcat - Thus, Daniel 10:13, "one of the foremost princes" which included the angelic Michael, with the phrase being spoken by an angelic messenger.]
If Michael is "angelic"... then HE is an angel, too, yes? Indeed, an arkangel. So, let's look at Revelation 7:11 again:
"All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures."
Now, if ALL of the angels are STANDING... and doing so not just around the throne of JAH... but around the elders... how could the elders themselves BE angels, even arkangels? That would mean the elders are standing around themselves, yes?
The elders are not the saints/holy ones, not of the great crowd from among the nations, and not angels. I exhort you to look into Moses and the Prophets, even Abraham. Even Enoch. King David. Isaac. Jacob. Joseph. And men like these. While these were promised a kingdom, they were NOT promised co-RULERSHIP in one. The covenant for THAT was not established when these men lived... but started with the Apostles. So they would not be part of the group that makes up that kingship/priesthood. Indeed, that group is made up of Israel and people of the nations, yet, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham weren't even OF Israel as Israel did not EXIST in their day ("Israel" starts with the descendants of Abraham's grandson, Jacob... later named Israel).
Yet, all of these... Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Zechariah... and others... WERE of JAH's "intimate counsel." To THEM He told things He told to no others during their time. To THEM He revealed sacred secrets... some of which were shared with others.
Which, though, of the angels did He share similar intimacy? Look into these, dear one... and the promises made to them... and others like them... and you will find your "24 elders."
I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a doulos of Christ,
SA
