The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries 75 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    No reputable scholars believe the Johns to be the same. The human life span would have to be more than 200 years or something!

    You were once a Jehovah's Witness. In order to be active in the KH as a convert, you must have believed at one time that the GB was true in their mission to interpret scripture and set rules for the congregations. Perhaps not. A casual reading of the Bible shows this is not truth. It is hard to debate doctrine but the culture negates many of the themes of Jesus' ministry. Science and historians have proved the Witness beliefs are false.

    If you trusted the GB, does it ever occur to you that you may be under a similar impairment. How do you know your view is correct? I probably have more Bible teaching than you do. Yet I continue to interpet scripture through academics and culture. There is no way I could begin to interpret scripture for anyone but self. If I were to try, I would know it was from my own psyche and not any outside influence.

    I do find it curious. You certainly have a right to your beliefs. I see not a shred of evidence that Christ directs you.

    As I've often said. this is so personal. Everyone who approaches scriptures in a certain manner believes they are the exclusive channel. With my academics and my own brain, I manifestly do not believe. Christ is an equal opportunity provider.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    I don't see how the apostles speaking on behalf of Paul, or Paul cooperating with others equates with those people ASSIGNING his ministry to him.

    The Lord assigned Paul to his ministry. Had other humans chose to oppose Paul then he would have kept right on going. He did not need their approval. As it turned out, outher spiritually minded people, the Apostles saw that Paul was legit. Paul also decided to cooperate with the congregations.

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    I manifestly do not believe. Christ is an equal opportunity provider.

    For a Christian I find the above remarkable, since many scriptures confirm the impartiality of Jah and we know that Christ reflected Him perfectly.

    There is no way I could begin to interpret scripture for anyone but self. If I were to try, I would know it was from my own psyche and not any outside influence.

    I would suggest that this is because you don't trust the Holy Spirit? For those of us that are anointed, we are promised that we don't need anyone to be teaching us, since the anointing remains in us and is teaching us about all things. If you disagree with this, it's Jah you're disagreeing with because its His arrangement, implemented by Christ whose voice, as our shepherd, we know.

    I John 2 v 20 & 27

    Loz x

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    I don't see how the apostles speaking on behalf of Paul, or Paul cooperating with others equates with those people ASSIGNING his ministry to him.

    I see what you mean, dear DD (peace to you!). Let me try and explain another way. At the time my Lord said the following... TO THE APOSTLES... no one had received holy spirit but them; however, the spirit they received was limited (John 20:22, 23):

    But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all JudeaandSamaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8 They received MORE... at Pentecost (Acts 2:2-4)... and with that various gifts. Including the gift of giving the spirit to OTHERS. So, when my Lord called Paul, Paul asked him what he wanted him to do... and he said to him: “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” Acts 9:6 And who told him? The Apostles and older men. So, now, yes, my Lord called Paul... and designated him an apostle (there were many apostles, but not all, including Paul, constituted the "twelve"). BUT... he allowed the apostles and older men to ASSIGN Paul his initial ministry. Paul was chosen to replace Stephen, whom the disciples chose (along with some other men) at the behest of the Apostles (not my Lord himself directly): "Now in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplying, there arose a complaint against the Hebrew-speaking Jews by the Greek-speaking Jews, because the widows of the latter were neglected in the daily distribution. Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables. Therefore, brethren, seek out from among youseven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business; but we will give ourselvescontinually to prayer and to the ministry of the word. And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them." Acts 6:1-6 This is because the power... and authority... had been CONFERRED... UPON the Apostles (John 20:22, 23). I promise you this, dear DD - I do not lie. My Lord left the Apostles in charge of assigning territories for the work. And they initially assigned Paul his. He called Paul... and sent that one TO the Apostles so that they use him as THEY needed. Which they did. Unfortunately, they and he didn't always agree... and much dissention occurred because of that, prompting Peter to have to vouch for Paul AGAIN... this time in writing (Galatians 2:8, 9; 2 Peter 3:15): "... and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, haswritten to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other writings." 2 Peter 3: At some point, Paul disputed his need for letters of recommendation from any of the Apostles, however, because he considered his length of service and the number of disciples HE had helped make to be sufficient to "recommend" him. He wrote of this in his THIRD letter (canonized as his "second") to the Corinthians when they had trouble with what he wrote in his first and second letters (1 Corinthians 5:9; 2 Corinthians 13:1)...(and they SHOULD have, given his first letter which told them to "quit mixing in the company of" some. Most of the Apostles and older men had a problem with this because that is not what Christ taught THEM; to the contrary, he taught them NOT to judge). Paul wrote: "Do we begin again to recommend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, letters of commendation to you orletters of commendation fromyou? You are our letter written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are a letter of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart." 2 Corinthians 3:1-3 and... " Do you look at things according to the outward appearance? If anyone is convinced in himself that he is Christ’s, let him again consider this in himself, that just as he is Christ’s, even so we are Christ’s. For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamedlest I seem to terrify you by letters. " For his letters,” they say, “are weighty and powerful, but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.” Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when we are absent, such we will also be in deed when we are present."2 Corinthians 10:7-11

    Paul addressed the concern over his letters because the Corinthians didn't recognize HIS authority as the same as that of the Apostles. But neither did Paul - he knew that HIS authority had a limit, where theirs' did not... such that THEY had to recommend him to the Corinthians (which Peter did in his letter); whereas the Apostles could recommend themselves (they were, after all, the Apostles... and, again, even Paul had to first go to... and through... them):

    "For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who recommend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you. For we are not overextending ourselves (as though our authority did not extend to you), for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ; not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men’slabors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere, to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man’s sphere of accomplishment." 2 Corinthians 10:12-16

    What Paul was saying here was that he wasn't trying to build on something others had already started with those in Corinth, but only to expand on that which was already established so as to INCREASE the faith of those there. This is in great contrast to those who attribute to HIM the start of the Corinthian congregation, which is NOT true - there were MANY believers already in Corinth when he arrived there (Acts 18:1-3, 9, 10) which is why they had a problem with Paul (and caused Paul problems with the other Apostles): he was trying to teach them something (judging within the congregation) that they had NOT been taught by the Apostles OR Christ.

    The Lord assigned Paul to his ministry.

    My Lord CALLED Paul to a ministry, yes, dear one. He did. But he left the initial part of the specific assignment of that ministry to the needs of the Apostles.

    Had other humans chose to oppose Paul then he would have kept right on going. He did not need their approval.

    Au contrare. Please... read the accounts. Acts, as well as Paul's and Peter's letters. You will find a very different picture than what those who look to Paul (some even as the 12th Apostle!) paint. You "see" what you do NOW... because of the prominence given Paul due to the number of his letters that are in the Bible canon. But Paul was NOT as important and prominent among the early Body as many believed him to be. Indeed, he had a LOT of problems being accepted... and caused a lot even when he was. Paul initially not only needed the approval of the Apostles, but letters of recommendation FROM them. THINK, dear one: Christ has ascended. Now, this man... who formerly cruelly persecuted the Body, even having many, including dear Stephen...PUT TO DEATH... comes up and says HE is now one of them. HE says he was walking down a road and had an event occur whereby Christ chose him. None of THEM saw it. How COULD they believe him, then? How could they know he wasn't a plant, a spy... an infiltrator? Only if the Apostles approved him could... WOULD... they accept this man, given his known history. And even the Apostles avoided him, at first. Didn't matter with the men who were with him on the road said. Didn't matter what Ananias said. ALMOST didn't matter was BARNABAS said. Even then, only three... Peter, John, and James (not an Apostle but considered an "older" man) bothered to meet with him. The others would NOT. But it took the approval of these three for the others to even consider him. It took some years for them to fully come around. And these FINALLY approved Paul upon his showing HIS obedience... by going to the areas they sent him, carrying letters that set out the decrees and decisions of the Apostles and older men. And for more than a decade. He went out on his OWN ministry, LATER... when he parted from Barnabas.

    As it turned out, outher spiritually minded people, the Apostles saw that Paul was legit.

    Not all of them, dear one... at least not at first. Not until James' said what he did about circumcision. THEN Paul became "approved" by the Apostles and older men. Even so... he reversed that approvaly by some (whom he called "superfine apostles") when he divided and nearly wrecked the Corinthian congregation by his admonishment to judge one another.

    Paul also decided to cooperate with the congregations.

    Yes. He did. Because he knew he was responsible for the division that almost ruined that congregation... which he did NOT start. What choice, then, DID he have? Cooperate... let THEM decide and go along with their decision, which is what Christ hadinstructed (Matthew 18:15-17)... or try to compel them to do what HE said? He would have lost everything... the regard of the Apostles, older men, and perhaps EVERY congregation... as well as perhaps his "hope"... had he not. Because his instruction to that congregation as absolutely and totally against the teachings of Christ. As to judging... and as to how to handle matters when someone sins. I hope this helps, dear one. I might also help if (1) you go to Christ himself and ask HIM what transpired, and well as (2) read the accounts... rather than listening to what scholars and others "opine" as to what occurred. Again, peace to you! YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    No reputable scholars believe the Johns to be the same.

    Doesn't matter what scholars, reputable or otherwise, believe - they are the same John. Some "reputable" scholars also believe Paul started the Corinthian congregation - yet, the record shows he didn't, that there were those of the Body already there when he arrived AS WELL AS that he was TOLD my Lord had MANY already there and so told him to stay there awhile. So...

    The human life span would have to be more than 200 years or something!

    Apparently, your math is poor, as well.

    You were once a Jehovah's Witness. In order to be active in the KH as a convert, you must have believed at one time that the GB was true in their mission to interpret scripture and set rules for the congregations. Perhaps not.

    Not sure what that has to do with this, but MANY are sincere. Sincerity is not the same as truth.

    A casual reading of the Bible shows this is not truth.

    I wouldn't know - I don't read it "casually." I read it while my Lord guides me. He tells me where the verses are... what they mean... even what the words are/mean. Usually, HE reads to ME while I follow along...

    It is hard to debate doctrine but the culture negates many of the themes of Jesus' ministry. Science and historians have proved the Witness beliefs are false.

    Madam, you do not have to be involved in this thread, at all. If you don't agree, fine. Move on. Others of us are trying to have a discussion here, though... which you have contributed absolutely nothing to... except your position of disbelief. You don't agree. We get it. So what?

    If you trusted the GB, does it ever occur to you that you may be under a similar impairment.

    Of course not. The GB are false christs, imposters. My Lord IS the Christ... the real deal. He has never lied to me yet. Now, that YOU don't hear him, have faith in him, or believe what I share... means what to me?

    How do you know your view is correct?

    Because I know the One from whom I received it, the HOLY One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah). You could know, too... but you don't want to. So, okay. Your choice. Far be it from ME to try and change it.

    I probably have more Bible teaching than you do.

    (Smile) Yes, as to what the "reputable" scholars teach... you most probably do. The One I look to and listen to isn't very reputable in this world, though; however, he is with the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAHVEH, which is really the only One that counts. He is also the One who chose John (and so surely would know if the two were the same one)... and Paul... and so pardon me if I stick with him. I only do so because... unlike your "reputable" scholars... and so you... he DOES know.

    Yet I continue to interpet scripture through academics and culture.

    And there you are. How's that working for you these days?

    There is no way I could begin to interpret scripture for anyone but self.

    Of course, not. You would need holy spirit to do so... because interpretations belong to God... who gives them to His Son... to give them to his servants. I am one such servant... and I know who MY Master is. Can you say the same? Think... before you respond to that...

    If I were to try, I would know it was from my own psyche and not any outside influence.

    And it WOULD be. I do NOT dispute that, indeed, I ABSOLUTELY believe it. I KNOW it. It WOULD be from you. So, it is best you DON'T... at least, as things stand NOW. Now, if you were to receive the promised holy spirit... who knows what gifts you would receive as a result? I surely don't... nor would I deign to opine on it.

    I do find it curious. You certainly have a right to your beliefs.

    Yet, you believe YOU have right to deny me such right. I'm tellin' you, girl... you have yet to make sense, yet.

    I see not a shred of evidence that Christ directs you.

    That's because you don't recognize the evidence that would TELL you. But that's on you and YOUR blindness, not anyone else.

    As I've often said. this is so personal.

    For you, yes. It has never been so for the Body. If it had been, there would have been no reason to SEND anyone out. Think, girl... THINK. Some even had the gift of laying on of hands. Others, speaking in tongues. Others interpreting tongues. Prophesying. Wisdom. Knowledge. Healing. ALL... for building UP the congregation. How, though, could ANY gifts of spirit being purely personal?? What is the point in RECEIVING a talent/mina... if one isn't going to SPEND it? Those who bury theirs... have it taken away. Those who spend them... so as to increase the Master's belongings... receive more. Hear... and get the sense of this truth: the holy spirit is not a selfish provision, something to be hidden and kept to oneself. It is to be SHARED... with its light set OUT... to SHINE.

    YOU are the one still ensconced in WTBTS teaching. You know, that whole "no one can tell who's anointed - it's a PERSONAL thing between them and 'Jehovah'... so personal they can't even explain it!" merlarkey? Holy spirit is not a hidden phenomenon... nor it is to BE hidden. It comes with gifts so that it can be MANIFEST... so that others will KNOW... and seek its benefits, TOO. NOT for themselves... but so as to build up OTHERS.

    You, though, having been fully indoctrinated in the WTBTS... which so affected your formative years that you cannot shake it... that no such gifts exist ("They have ceased!"). But this is yet another LIE from that false christ/false prophet/harlot: Paul NEVER said that the gifts HAD ceased but that in some way they WOULD cease... when that which is COMPLETE - Christ himself - arrives. But it wasn't the gifts themselves that would cease; it was their PARTIALITY that would cease. Because we only have such gifts PARTIALLY now... but will have them COMPLETELY then. And so when that which is COMPLETE... Christ... arrives... the PARTIAL gifts would cease.

    Goodness, at least read your Bible because deigning to speak of things you have NO idea about.

    Everyone who approaches scriptures in a certain manner believes they are the exclusive channel.

    If they do, they are in error. The only exclusive channel... is Christ. And if they believe they are Christ... and are NOT him... then they err in their thinking. If, however, they approach scripture in the manner HE tells/gives them... then why do you worry? And any who do should not believe they are the only or exclusive one - they are part of a BODY... which is made up of MANY members. And GOD sets those members in that Body, just as HE pleases... and not each one... as to himself/herself... or others.

    With my academics and my own brain, I manifestly do not believe.

    Well, there you go! At least you can't blame anyone else for you position. You have chosen it yourself.

    Christ is an equal opportunity provider.

    Not entirely. Among those of FAITH (which you have JUST claimed you do NOT have)... you are absolutely correct: there is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor freeman. He is completely impartial and so an equal opportunity provider, yes. Even among those who don't KNOW if they have faith. He does not, however, arbitrarily "provide"... to those who LACK faith... and certainly not to those who SAY, without reservation (as you have here)... that they "manifestly do NOT believe." At least Thomas limited his proclamation to "I will not believe, unless..." You, though, have pretty much closed that particular door and simply declared your lack of faith. So that's on you, girl... and you alone. Not God, not Christ... and certainly not any other human.

    Which tells ME... that you are indeed Israel. Just as I suspected. 'Cause they were ALWAYS putting THEIR feet in their mouths, too. Sadly, some of them even in their childrens' mouths (Matthew 27:25).

    So, okay, you don't believe. We get it. Will you move on NOW... or will keep trying to argue things of which you admit you have no knowledge (and actually keep showing that you don't really know what the scholars believe or the Bible states)?

    A doulos of Christ,

    SA

  • donuthole
    donuthole

    The 24 elders are the old testament patriarchs/prophets who receive their reward.

  • Newly Enlightened
    Newly Enlightened

    Interesting discussion. I was just talking about this with my husband. We read the Book of Enoch, which mentions several detailed accounts of how archangel's interact with Jesus & humans. Mentioning several by name. We believe that the 24 elders are the archangels that serve Jesus and around the throne. That is why they are 'around' the throne.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    YES, dear DH... YES!! Peace to you... and do we have a new chapter (no pun intended), yet? I need a fix! LOLOLOL!

    Peace!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    We believe that the 24 elders are the archangels that serve Jesus and around the throne. That is why they are 'around' the throne.

    Greetings, dear NE... and peace to you and your dear husband! I would like to ask you to consider a couple/few things, if you will:

    Would you say that archangels (arkangels) ARE angels, dear NE (peace to you!)? If so, how do you reconcile that the account states that "ALL the angels" (which would include arkangels, yes?) are around the throne... AND around the 24 elders?

    Also, how would you offer that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, and certain others, while said by Christ to BE in his kingdom... are not kings and priests in that kingdom (because the offer for THAT privilege was not held out to these, but first to the Apostles)?

    These men showed themselves faithful "in ALL things" and Abraham was even designated as God's personal friend. Moses was the mediator of the Law Covenant. David was God's first chosen king (He chose Saul but only because Israel demanded a king). Jacob precursored Christ himself. The Apostles, though, argued, disputed, disregarded one another, showed EXTENSIVE lack of faith... while with him as well as after (Peter even denied him!)... yet, they've been given rulership over the 12 tribes. Just looking at faith, mercy... and love... would it REALLY be "just" for God/Christ to appoint the Apostles over THESE men?

    Not to mention that those who believe and teach that there are more than two arkangels (which is false: there are MANY cherubs, but truly, only TWO arkangels - Exodus 25:19, 20; Revelation 12:7-9)... believe their number is 7. How do you reconcile that number... 7... with the "24" elders in the account?

    Not trying to dispute negatively, not at all, but just hoping that perhaps you and your dear husband might consider some things maybe you haven't before.

    Again, peace to you!

    A doulos of Christ,

    SA

  • Twitch

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