Please Help! Wife want PROOF of Watchtower Deception

by Indian Larry 70 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Black Sheep

  It isn't the information that is your problem. It is your method of getting the message across.

  A prime example is this one: Phizzy> I tried 607. It is like talking to a wall. “God has to have an organization, if it is not the WT then who is it?”

  What has that got to do with 607?

  Forget trying to find something new to tell her. You have plenty already.

  You can't keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

  You have to learn to stop telling her stuff, and learn how to ask a question and then guilt her for the dishonest tactics that she uses to weasel her way out of her problem.

  Pick a subject that she already responded to without actually confronting the problem and make her deal with it without letting her use her JW evasion training to fool you.

  Every time she answers a question .... pause .... and ask yourself .... "Did she really answer the question that I asked?" If she didn't ... restate the question without rephrasing it. She wants you to keep rephrasing it until you give her a loophole or a change of subject ... give her nothing except guilt for her subterfuge. It is very OK to feign being offended by her attempt to treat you like a fool.
• 

  Phizzy

  The very best advice above Balck Sheep, and thanks for giving it again, we all need to remember it when talking to JW's, they are trained to jump away from answering a question, thus not having to face up to it themselves.

  I think Larry that you need to put that advice into practice, but be kind as you do so, and we have to realise that until a person is ready, they simply will not see and wake up.

  Sadly many never will wake up, but do not give up, do not let her drop back in to a comfort zone, keep asking for a satisfactory answer to your one question.

  Many people who post on here or did in the past, have managed to get their loved ones out, so keep at it !
• 

  00DAD

  IndianLarry, have you seen this thread:

  • Why No Disfellowshipping Before 1952?

  
• 

  Black Sheep

  New Watchtower. December 2012

  Download from official website: http://www.jw.org/apps/index.html?fileformat=PDF&issue=20121201&output=html&pub=wp&langwritten=E&option=TRGCHlZRQVNYVrXF&txtCMSLang=E

  Page 5

  “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7) The essence of Paul’s counsel is that “nothing is ever to be given ‘from compulsion,’ from a feeling that one is forced to give,” explains one Bible commentary. Being “a cheerful giver” rules out the feeling of being obligated to give a specific item to a specific person at a specific time—the way Christmas gift-giving often turns out to be.

  The Interpretation of II Corinthians By R. C. H. Lensk

  The quote is from page 1171 and can be read here .

  Lensk is not talking about giving prezzies to your family.

  For this to be quoted befitting it's context, it should be quoted during the begging talk when they are asking you to swipe your credit card and donate to the bOrg.
• 

  jgnat

  I don't know if cognitive dissonance is an indication of failure. It shows that something hit close to home.

  I got the most severe reaction of cognitive dissonance when I countered a teaching that hubby had just covered in the magazine. The article was about false Christendom and their mixing of greek philosophy. I just happened to be reading Plato at the time and I came across a description of heaven. I asked hubby if I could read it to him. I asked him if it sounded familiar? I then told him that this was written a couple hundred years before Paul wrote his. So who borrowed from who?

  Hubby reacted instantly an started repeating over and over, "I have the truth" which is a sure sign that the barb hit home.

  So I think countering a current teaching can be very powerful. It is not a rehashed argument from a book. It is fresh thinking.

  The downside of triggering cognitive dissonance is that the person can become even more entrenched. It is important somehow to tailor the timing and the environment to be non-threatening.

  I don't have all the answers. I am still working on it.
• 

  Splash

  Hi,

  Lots of good suggestions here.

  Mine is to show how they are selective in their quotations, and for me personally, this was a wake-up call:

  The WT showed how Jesus was thought to be put to death on a stake, and gave a picture from Justus Lipsius:

  ***w11 3/1 p.18 Did Jesus Really Die on a Cross? *** [Picture on page 18]

  (The same 17th-century drawing of that stauros′, from Lipsius’ De Cruce

  can be seen online here) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg )

  Justus book actually has 12 'cruxes' illustrated, 10 have a crossbeam and only two do not.

  http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/justus-lipsius-de-cruce-liber-tres.html

  Justus himself thought Jesus was impaled on a cross, not a stake.

  So why did the WT present the material in such as way as to make the reader beeive there was only on stauros, when really there were many?

  Splash
• 

  Splash

  Hi,

  Or another suggestion - ask her about Revelation's "New Scrolls":

  *** w10 4/15 p.11 par.17 Holy Spirit’s Role in the Outworking of Jehovah’s Purpose***

  "How will Jehovah use his holy spirit in the coming new world? That spirit will be the force behind the new scrolls that will be opened at that time. (Rev. 20:12) What will these contain? Evidently, Jehovah’s detailed requirements for us during the thousand years"

  Where does Revelation mention New Scrolls?

  What is the 'evidence' the WT refers to?

  (Revelation 20:12) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.

  Read in context, those scrolls are already described in Rev 12 - they are the scrolls used to judge people - not new instructions at all.

  Splash
• 

  Splash

  Or flip-flops?

  I have that many flip-flops I could open a shop!

  Ask her "If new light makes things clearer, why do some teachings go back to a previously disproved 'new light'? "

  Is the light really getting brighter in such instances, or is it just just moving around?

  Where does this 'new light' come from in the instances it turns out to be wrong after all?

  Does Jehovah mislead his people by changing his mind, then changing it back again, and anyone who doesn't blindly accept each new version could be df'd? (And if they are df'd and the teaching goes back to what it was previously, the df'd person has to stay df'd even though they were actually correct?)

  How do we know that what we are taught is 'Truth' today, will still be truth tomorrow?

  Splash
• 

  Splash

  Or how maybe ask "who is her mediator?"

  *** w08 12/15 p.14 par.13-14 Appreciate Jesus’ Unique Role in God’s Purpose***

  "13 What does Jesus’ role as Mediator involve? Well, Jehovah applies the value of Jesus’ blood to those being brought into the new covenant. In this way, Jehovah legally credits them with righteousness. (Rom. 3:24; Heb. 9:15) God can then take them into the new covenant with the prospect of their becoming heavenly king-priests! As their Mediator, Jesus assists them in maintaining a clean standing before God.—Heb. 2:16.

  14 What about those who are not in the new covenant, those who hope to live forever on earth, not in heaven? While not participants in the new covenant, these are beneficiaries of it. They receive forgiveness of their sins and are declared righteous as God’s friends. (Jas. 2:23; 1 John 2:1, 2) Whether we have a heavenly hope or an earthly hope, each one of us has good reason to appreciate Jesus’ role as the Mediator of the new covenant."

  The above WT says Jesus is only the mediator for the F&DS. (Edit: I see someone already mentioned this above)

  1. Who then is her mediator? The GB?

  2. How does the WT reconcile that with the Bible teaching at 1 Tim 2:

  (1 Timothy2:1-7) . . .I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men , 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. 7 For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.

  Splash
• 

  Splash

  Or the Trumpet Blasts in Revelations. (Not sure where I picked this up from but I didn't come up with it)

  Look at the dates that are attributed to each trumpet blast according to the Rev book, especially the 5th, 6th and 7th ones:

  'Revelation - Its Grand Climax At Hand', from the 2006 revision of the original 1988 published book.

  Angelic trumpet blasts and their prophetic significance is as follows:Revelation 8:71st Angel Trumpet blown = September 10, 1922 convention in Cedar Point, Ohio.
  [Page 134, paragraph 18]Revelation 8:8, 92nd Angel Trumpet blown = August 18-26, 1923 convention in Los Angeles, California.
  [Page 134, paragraph 22]Revelation 8:10, 113rd Angel Trumpet blown = July 20-27, 1924 convention in Columbus, Ohio.
  [Page 137, paragraph 33]Revelation 8:124th Angel Trumpet blown = August 29, 1925 convention in Indianapolis, Indiana.
  [Page 140, paragraph 39]Revelation 9:15th Angel Trumpet blown = September 1-8, 1919 convention in Cedar Point, Ohio.
  [Page 143, paragraph 5]

  Revelation 9:13, 146th Angel Trumpet blown = March 25, 1919 release from bondage.

  [Page 149, paragraph 4]Revelation 11:157th Angel Trumpet blown = 1914 when Jehovah enthrones Jesus.

  [Page 171, paragraph 2]