Sam Harris - On the Freedom to Offend an Imaginary God

by cofty 93 Replies latest social current

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  dontplaceliterature

  Good article, and great points, NC. I think it is a healthy discussion that should be had more regularly. As long as people are afraid they don't have the freedom to speak out against rediculous beliefs, those beliefs will continue to thrive. I don't think speaking out against Islam would necessarily result in a Christian power movement in this country, and I don't think it's picking sides. They may become more powerful in their own minds, but that will be it.

  The more people are willing to speak out against any religion in public as a destructive force, the harder it will be for all of them to escape notice.

  It's a problem that needs solved, and we have got to start somewhere.
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  NewChapter

  Do we violate our Constitution because of Islam? And if we, as a government, condemn Islam, then what shall we condemn next? Atheists are pretty hated. Individuals condemn us all the time. Why not the atheists? That's my point. As individuals though, we speak as we wish. But once our government starts picking and choosing, then everyone but Christians will need to run for cover. Remember, we have Muslims in America. Should our government make a special effort to target them? The wall has to hold strong. Every little chink weakens it, and this would be a crater. Christians are constantly pecking at it.
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  tec

  He may be an idiot, but he is not responsible for these murders. Ignorant people following an ignorant religion are responsible. It would be the same with Christians if they were ever allowed to have that kind of power again.

  If he knew it would cause the murder of some, then he might not be responsible for the murder, but he is responsible for knowingly putting other people in danger with his actions. "I know this is going to get someone else killed; I just don't care and I'm doing it anyway."

  But only he can know the truth behind his motives. Ignorance would play a part in that too, I'm guessing. Ignorance of not living in such a country where you would have to fear for your life because such a thing is NOT a freedom over there. Ignorance of having no idea what that way of life could be like.

  And I agree with you that it would be the same with ANYONE in power. Christians doing such things would be going against Christ (and there are too many who do not follow religion or men to blithely ignore the teachings of Christ and go ahead and do such things). I do not know enough about Mohommad to be able to state with certainty one way or another. I know some of what people say that he taught, but i have not read the quran or Mohommad's instructions, to be able to see for myself. It would be no different with atheists. The reason would be different, but you would have a group of extremists among them as well. Because that sort of violence is IN those people, and they will look for an outlet to excuse it.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  dontplaceliterature

  I don't see how elected leaders speaking out against violent over-reaction in the name of religion would be crossing the line of separation. I don't see how they would be picking sides. By condemning the production of the video and asking Google to remove it haven't they crossed the line all the same then, just in favor of Islam rather than against it?
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  leavingwt

  I agree with the President.

  It is the right of all American citizens to make crude and disgusting videos. The only speech that needs protection is unpopular speech.

  Mr. Obama appeared to relish the larger canvas of the United Nations and his subject, freedom of speech and why in the United States, even making “a crude and disgusting video” is a right of all citizens.

  “As president of our country, and commander in chief of our military, I accept that people are going to call me awful things every day,” Mr. Obama said. “And I will defend their right to do so.” For that, he received cheers in the cavernous hall.

  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/world/obamas-address-to-united-nations.html?pagewanted=all&gwh=69D7EFF44152FAFABDCCF789EBE29B1D
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  dontplaceliterature

  But by referring to the video as "crude and disgusting," in the same breath isn't he defending their reaction on some level?
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  tec

  I don't think it is wrong for officials to speak out agains an overreaction and violence either.

  But I also don't think it is right to lump all muslims into one. That is how racism (and even genocide) can be developed and excused.

  I also think the issue is made more complex, because some people don't seem to realize that other countries do not have the same freedoms as the us. Nor the same rights. Nor does the US have the right to enforce their way of life onto someone else, any more than someone else has the right to enfoce their way of life onto the US. It just adds another kink in the way some things must be dealt with and spoken of.

  I do agree from his article that a lot (if not most) of this is politically motivated, and religion is just the shield to hide behind.

  Peace,

  tammy
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  leavingwt

  But by referring to the video as "crude and disgusting," in the same breath isn't he defending their reaction on some level?

  No.
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  NewChapter

  I don't know DPL. In times of crisis, we make decisions, and he is trying to calm violence a world away. But I do agree that it may not be his place to condemn the video---and yet mobs were out of control at the time. I think it would be acceptable if the he said that our government does not condone the message in the video, and that is correct since our govt should be neutral here, but should not condemn it either. Yet, 4 Americans have just been murdered, and there is more danger escalating, and that can lead to different behavior in an effort to get everyone safe.

  It really wasn't the time for our President to come out and condemn Islam. Never is that time. I have also heard a lot of condemnation of the actions of those who are mobbing around. This is a delicate moment, and nothing we do will make everyone happy. Sometimes the answers just aren't clear in the midst of it all, and some damage is easier to fix than others.

  On a side note, there is a push at the UN to make blashphemy an international crime. We have a huge job ahead if we don't want Islam to take over the world.
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  dontplaceliterature

  I don't think it says anything about the individuals, Tammy, but is rather a commentary on the belief system itself. So to insinuate that this would lead to racism isn't fair.