Why I truly come in!

by justmom 160 Replies latest jw friends

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  NewChapter

  Hello Just Mom. So glad you freed yourself from the cult. May I ask, have your children also been freed? That would be the best outcome. My own daughter (I'm just a mom too) never took to the religion, and I will always be grateful for that.

  Full disclosure: I am an atheist. However others are not, and some may be searching for the way they should travel. I have already decided my route, by I wish to help those reading to ask relevent questions. I'm sure all would appreciate that given we were all lied to and mislead by the WT. We have that in common. So it is a natural reflex to make sure this does not happen to any of us again. You have invited me to ask you questions, and so I will do so. Not so much on my behalf (as I said, I am an atheist) but on behalf of those that are not voicing them, or may not think to ask a specific question.

  Of course, I don't hold the bible as having much authority, and it seems you do not either, but there are a few pearls in there. One being that every inspired utterance should be examined closely. So you will need to distinguish yourself from other believers that have led other down a treacherous path. We must be cautious. We must find a way to separate one inspired utterance from another---but if we accept every utterance as inspired without question, we would become gullible and easily led. So here goes.

  We want you to know, any of you out there that we are here for you to share or if there is ANYTHING pertaining to our lord and master that I can help you with please ask.

  That is a kind invitation to come to you and ask, but may I ask, where else can one go for this information? With information this important, I am sure there are other sources that can be investigated and held to be sound. You understand, I belonged to a cult because one man, Russell, said he was directed by spirit. I believed that. And then a small group of men said they were directed by spirit. I believed that also. It got me into a real mess. I have learned to be much more careful and to question any who would suggest that they are the source of the message. So where else can we go for this information?

  Learning how to go to him as the ONLY "way, truth, life, door, narrow road, the Joseph, the resurrection,

  Again, more of the same question. How does one learn how to go to him? Where does the information come from, and how can one access it. Forgive me for not simply accepting that I can come to you, but as you know, I have been mislead by humans before. I need something stronger than somebody else's personal revelation and assertion. I'm sure if there was a god, it would understand this and provide it. Afterall, he/she would not want us to be mislead either.

  We can now truly "walk by faith and not by sight" "worship with spirit (christ) and Truth"(Christ

  I don't fully understand this sentiment. I'm sure you are not advocating blind faith (back to our history, blind faith has hurt all of us), but walking by faith not sight does seem to be blind. If you have evidence for your faith, then it would seem it is no longer walking without sight, so the two ideas don't appear to be compatible. Either you believe and operate with full faith, or you have evidence which would be sight, and therefore, you are no longer walking by faith without sight. They seem to cancel each other out. I'm sure you can break this down.

  Do not be touching the unclean thing

  What is the unclean thing?

  NC
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  Witness My Fury

  Qcmbr, I always enjoy your posts. I wish I could be half as eloquent..
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  NewChapter

  No doubt Witness---me too.
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  Qcmbr

  Thx :)
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  LV101

  I have some question(s) for athiests: (1) Just who was this man called Christ 2,000 yrs. ago that influenced the world? If that's all a phosod he was the most popular ever. I realize there's not any evidence proving his existence; and (2) What do you think it would take to change behavior of mankind (I realize we all have good/bad but when the bad outweighs the good something needs to be radically reversed) not that all who profess to be Christians conduct themselves indicating such (but after all, xtians aren't perfect only forgiven/thank God!). If there's one thing that is disgusting about professed Christians is their conduct and it drives people away from anything to do w/following Christ whether it's a test on one's xtian endurance, whatever. I never could buy that line at the hall (or much of anything they said).

  There's a behavioral experiment that has followed a large group of ex-convicts around for 10 yrs. or more that converted to Christianity and the amt. of repeat-crimes committed was a very low percentile --- as any criminal lawyer will chant there's not anyone in jail/prison who doesn't get saved and is innocent but this experiment has proved to be the real deal. Anyway, I was shocked to hear about this test case. Maybe it's like the stats of many men in prisons today converting to Islam because they need/love the discipline that they've never experienced in their life from a responsible father or any father figure for that matter.

  Last question --- is it up to science (behavioral science/psychology/psyhiatry) to teach humans? I've always thought there should be teams in all educational facilities to work w/all children to protect and place in safe environs for them to learn/grow and leave the forocious animalistic traits. (I'm not referring to loving, responsible parents).
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  xchange

  >LV101 - can you post a link for that longitudinal study.
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  NewChapter

  (1) Just who was this man called Christ 2,000 yrs. ago that influenced the world? If that's all a phosod he was the most popular ever. I realize there's not any evidence proving his existence; and

  I'm not 100% sure he existed or didn't exist. But if he did, I suspect he was a respected teacher, but I also see him as an incredibly political figure. The Jews were under Roman rule, and really could no longer carry out their law without causing conflict. This easily could get them wiped out, as evidenced in the years that followed. The new rules he brought in, the new understanding to an established religion, would have made it more possible for them to exist under Roman rule. For instance, it made it more possible for them to hand over the power of enforcement to the state, rather than stoning people in the middle of town. But of course, the one rule that couldn't be changed, was to worship only one god. That definitely caused some issues with Rome at a later point, but still, there was a lot of political motivation.

  (2) What do you think it would take to change behavior of mankind (I realize we all have good/bad but when the bad outweighs the good something needs to be radically reversed) not that all who profess to be Christians conduct themselves indicating such (but after all, xtians aren't perfect only forgiven/thank God!). If there's one thing that is disgusting about professed Christians is their conduct and it drives people away from anything to do w/following Christ whether it's a test on one's xtian endurance, whatever. I never could buy that line at the hall (or much of anything they said).

  I think understanding, knowledge, and enlightenment can change the behavior of humankind. I also think that superstition, misinformation, and propaganda can change the behavior of humankind. But if I'm looking for it to change to the better, I'll go with knowledge etc. As we come to understand the real reasons behind events, we have the opportunity to become better. We understand the cycles of the seasons, we can anticipate things that affect it, we find ways to deal with adverse conditions, we apply that knowledge and we are no longer victims that need to pray or offer sacrifice for a good crop. When we understand that certain pathogens can kill a crop, and not god's disfavor, we look for an antidote to those pathogens. When we understand that locusts and other pests are not sent by god for disobedience, but a force that we should try to control, we will get better crops.

  When we let go of the idea that certain things are wrong and certain people are inferior, we wipe away slavery, suppression of women, hate toward homosexuals. As we become more enlightened, and let go of superstition, our behavior improves.

  So to answer it all, I believe the answer lies with us humans. We are capable of both good and bad, but the more we know, the less that ancient superstitions feed our predjudice, the more understanding we have of real causes, then the more tools we have to become better. How we use those tools will vary. But religion has not, and never will, change that unmovable fact about humans. Some people, believers or not, will do harm. But when that harm is done in the name of god, or the name of any hurtful ideology (totalitarianism, chrisitanity, islam) the brutality is intensified.

  I hope that as we continue to educate the world about our universe and planet, we will turn the tide of human behavior. Religion has never been able to do this. I think that facts and knowledge move us much more effectively. But we have to have brains that are prepared to accept those facts. Brains that are not clouded by superstition and justified hatred. Brains that can think critically and debunk garbage. I believe that faith dulls these abilities.

  NC
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  NewChapter

  Last question --- is it up to science (behavioral science/psychology/psyhiatry) to teach humans? I've always thought there should be teams in all educational facilities to work w/all children to protect and place in safe environs for them to learn/grow and leave the forocious animalistic traits. (I'm not referring to loving, responsible parents).

  Science is a process to answer questions. How we use those answers vary. I'm not sure I understand the question. It's an uncomfortable suggested because it conjurs up images of re-education teams and centers for molding behavior. Science is not in the business of morals, but in the business of providing information. We have schools. They should teach the information as we understand it. We talk to each other. It is a shame when parents stunt their childrens mental growth by filling their brains with misinformation---like creation. I have a family member that is an uber Christian, and she recently signed her child up for a school that boasts that Evolution is not even MENTIONED in the science books! She is quite happy about that.

  But we have the internet now. Information is everywhere. Hopefully science and technology will one day save her child from knuckle dragging ignorance. Until then, we must helplessly stand by and watch. Painful.

  NC
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  sabastious

  I realize there's not any evidence proving his existence

  Hello LVL101, I think that the existence of the Roman Catholic Church is evidence of the existence of Jesus Christ of Nazarene. The 1st century had a mysterious religion that centered around what was called the "Mithraic mysteries." The Roman's were in a state of emergency and they were going through all types of changes. The reasoning why they decided to adopt Christ over Mithra is telling of the existence of a real Jewish revolutionary who was crucified by the Roman government. Too many people knew about a real monumental event that may have been actual Jewish prophecy being fulfilled. So, the Roman's took it for themselves and used it to strengthen their empire. The Roman Catholic Church was the first move against the reality that a higher power was interested in the welfare of humanity.

  What's also very interesting to me is how many theological schisms that have come from that fateful event, whatever it really was. No matter how many organizations spring up around a Christ inspired set of doctrines their deconverts always have a percentage that go back to the story of Christ and start over. Even Steven Unthank has Jesus of Nazerene as his formost inspiration according to his site.

  Even very prominent atheists like Bart Ehrman and Pat Condell cannot deny the existence of a man in the 1st century that accomplished something simply because too much has come from it. To call it a total fantasy is folly.

  -Sab
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  Witness My Fury

  LV101 I used to use point 1 to some success in FS.

  However, now I have a lot more knwledge these last few years of research into the bible etc. Once most of the OT bible (The Deuteronomist spin machine that it is) is debunked as merely later revisionist redacted political / monotheist "history" and not a true factual account, then the later Jesus who came claiming belief in Noahs flood, Adam and Eve the exodus account etc etc, then it becomes quite clear he was NOT who he (or his followers) claimed he was.

  The actual evidence for the Jesus as portrayed in the NT is very slim indeed.