How many ex-jws poster here now believe in Hellfire, immortality of soul, trinity, etc;

by booker-t 70 Replies latest jw friends

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    HAHA

    LOl Hi Ros!

    It's been so many years.

    I didn't know you posted here. (You may have told me before, sorry if so).

    Good to hear from you! I think we are close to being on the same page.

    Actually, the study of the formation of the 66 books we call the Bible, and all the extra contempoorary literature from about 200 BC to about 250 AD is much more fascinating if we aren't looking for a custom religion, as you know. It prevents cognitive dissonance, and like a vacation to the middle East for research purposes, it is just fascinating to keep yourself liker a fly on the wall, recording what you learn and see. :-))

    hugs to ya!

    I hope Alan is better.

    Randy

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    To me the Trinity is a guaranteed product of religious evolution. I think given enough time and data a religion will always head towards monotheism and eventually a Tri-God.

    Well, that's an interesting thought, but I strongly disagree that religious development is so deterministic. And the trajectory of reduction from a maximally differentiated system (polytheism with large pantheons) to a minimally differentiated one leads imo not to trinitarianism (which maintains distinction within unity) but to the full monotheism characteristic of modern Judaism.

    Genesis 18's mysterious use of the word "they" in verse 9 seems like an early stepping stone in the evolution towards a Trinity Creator.

    But its really just an ordinary expression in biblical Hebrew.

    Genesis 18:6-9: " So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. 'Quick,' he said, 'get three seahsof the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread'. Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. H e then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. ' Where is your wife Sarah?' they asked him".

    Genesis 24:55-57: " Her brother and her mother replied, 'Let the young woman remain with us ten days or so; then you may go'. But he said to them, 'Do not detain me, now that Yahweh has granted success to my journey. Send me on my way so I may go to my master'. Then they said, 'Let’s call the young woman and ask her about it' ".

    Genesis 26:32: "That day Isaac's servants came and told him about the well they had dug. They said, 'We've found water!' ".

    There are probably a hundred other examples of this in the OT. Nothing mysterious.

    The creative process as per the Torah is a group effort and requires speaking in unison.

    This is very ordinary...there is nothing different in the way speech is attributed to the three men visiting Abraham than elsewhere in the OT when groups of people are involved.

    This is why I am so interested in Genesis 18:9 because the three entities are actually speaking in unison. 2 Kings 18 doesn't seem to have anyone speaking in unison.

    Of course it does...

    2 Kings 18:22: "But if you (pl.) say to me, 'We are depending on Yahweh our God' — isn't he the one whose high places and altars Hezekiah removed?"

    2 Kings 18:26: " Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah, and Shebna and Joah (pl.) said to the field commander, 'Please speak to your servants in Aramaic, since we understand it. Don't speak to us in Hebrew in the hearing of the people on the wall".

    I don't think Genesis 18:9 is just a vague way of describing a group question, I think it's a "telepathic" link.

    And that is a good illustration of how theology draws on biblical interpretation. But the idea that there is a telepathic link is not something actually contained in the text.

    The mention of Asherah in 1 Kings 18:19 is of interest to me because of the recent findings that there used to be a "God marriage" between Yahweh and Asherah in Bible times and they were worshipped as a couple. Separating the traits of God into more than one entity always yielded corruption which is why polytheism was punishable by death for so long.

    This seems to presume the Deuteronomistic view of history that posits monotheism first and polytheism as a later corruption; the historical evidence rather shows that it was the reserve. The earliest stage had El and Asherah as a couple, then Yahweh was identified with El leading logically to the status of Asherah as a consort of Yahweh, and then finally Asherah was phased out with her attributes being absorbed by Yahweh (and surviving in some traditions as a hypostasis of God). Even the Deuteronomistic History presents the pre-exilic period as a time of continuous idolatry and polytheism, punctuated by the brief aniconic reforms of Hezekiah and Josiah. Prior to Josiah's reform, Asherah was even worshipped at the Jerusalem Temple (2 Kings 23:6-7), which indirectly shows how mainstream and institutional her status as consort of Yahweh was in the seventh century BC.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I no longer believe in any neat packages. Hell fire as a literal place sounds silly. Hell defined as profound alienation from God is understandable. I don't believe we float around in heaven with harps after we died. The bodily ressurection is more complete to me. I believe the Trinity without focusing on details. I see it as a church tradition that tries to compartmentalize all the various ways to encounter God. Reading the lit, I am utterly convinced that Jesus did not see himself as God transcedent. It is a later belief but I no longer view the Bible as the exclusive channel of God, after the WT, of course.

    Any faith I possess is a result of changing the concepts so they fit with my world view. Part of the reason why the WT had any credence with me is b/c they are correct about some superficial teachings, such as Christmas, the Trinity, immortality, etc. I see larger issues beneath the Church's historical teachings.

    The WT is a serious aberration. I am now free to embrace the world when it makes sense. Creationsim vs. evolution drives me crazy. 99% of serious scholarship can not be wrong. The creeds were adopted by political process but anyone who believes the WT is not heavily involved in politics is delusional.

  • binadub
    binadub

    Hi again, Randy:

    Yes, we think quite a bit alike on Christianity. Something I find interesting is that if you do a search on, say, "history of Christianity," it returns all kinds of sources that describe its roots in the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Yet, the Egyptian Coptic church has a history as old, lineage of popes, and a higher scholarly history than the Romans or Greeks (e.g., the Catecheticala School of Alexandria). And so many fragments are found in Egypt.
    I
    f you specify "Coptic" it brings up a world of interesting background history of Christianity in the first century, which they trace back (traditionally of course :-) to their first pope being Mark (Peter's companion).

    It's my opinion that when Peter wrote greetings from himself and Mark as from Babylon (1Pet.5:13), it was Babylon, Egypt, part of Cairo (about 500 miles from Jerusalem and a region where there was a significant Jewish population in the first century). That's supposedly why Jesus' parents escaped from Herod by going there. Here's an interesting scholarly link if you might be interested:

    http://egyptsites.wordpress.com/2009/03/01/old-cairo/

    Because Mark's history is so tied with Egypt, and he was Peter's companion, along with the significant Jewish population there in the first century, I'm inclined to agree with historians who believe this was the Babylon Peter was likely writing from. Naturally, orthodox historians dispute that in favor of "Babylon" likely referring to Rome. Literal ancient Babylon was too far from Jerusalem imo.

    But I'm getting way off topic here. :-)
    I spoke with Alan for about 3 hours about a month ago. He sounded great. I was really surprised about his heart attack, but am glad it was not more serious. Good that he discovered the diabetes.

    Leolaia: Still wondering if it was in Washington State that you might have met AlanF.

    {{{hugs back atcha, Randy}}}

    ~Binadub (aka Ros)[

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    binadub....Actually Alan came out to my house in California twice. First time in 2004 he came with frankiespeakin, and the second time I went out to dinner with him with my boyfriend. Great conversation was had.

    Because Mark's history is so tied with Egypt, and he was Peter's companion, along with the significant Jewish population there in the first century, I'm inclined to agree with historians who believe this was the Babylon Peter was likely writing from. Naturally, orthodox historians dispute that in favor of "Babylon" likely referring to Rome. Literal ancient Babylon was too far from Jerusalem imo.

    The traditions locating Mark in Egypt place him in Alexandria, not 130 miles to the south at the Babylon Fortress in Old Cairo, nor do they posit Peter as accompanying him in Egypt (and why would they have been at an imperial fort?). They rather claim that Mark went to Alexandria after he parted company with Peter (Epiphanius, Panarion 51.6.10), and the earliest sources claim that he wrote the gospel after Peter's death (Papias, cited in Historia Ecclesiastica 3.39.15; Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses 3.1.2), and that he took the gospel he had just written to Egypt (Jerome, De Viris Illustribus, 8). The NT elsewhere refers to the presence of Mark in Rome on two occasions: (1) he accompanied Paul during his first imprisonment (Philemon 24, Colossians 4:10), and (2) he was summoned to go to Rome during Paul's second imprisonment (2 Timothy 4:11). So outside of 1 Peter we have very early sources that located Mark in Rome, a datum that was reproduced in later traditions as well. Outside of 1 Peter 5:13, the earliest clear reference to Peter's ministry in Rome was in Ignatius, Romans 4:3 (written in the early second century AD), which also hints that he was martyred with Paul as well. 1 Clement 5:3-7, written in Rome in the late first century AD, also mentions the martyrdom of Paul and Peter without being explicit as to the place. The Ascension of Isaiah (early second century AD) gives the earliest testimony of the tradition that Peter perished during the Neronian persecution (4:2-3), a claim later made by Tertullian (end of the second century AD) as well (De Praescriptione 36, Scorpiace 15). I am somewhat unsure of the historicity of the "Peter in Rome" tradition, but the references to "Babylon" and Mark in 1 Peter show that the epistle is an early witness to it (perhaps the earliest, depending on its date).

    The usage of "Babylon" as a nickname or symbol for Rome was widely attested at the end of the first century AD and early second century AD, the same period during which 1 Peter was written (Revelation 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, 10, 21; 4 Ezra 3:1-5:20, 10:19-48, 11:1-12:51, 15:43-63, 16:1-34; 2 Baruch 11:1, 67:7, 77:12, 17, 19, 79:1, 80:4; Sibylline Oracles 3:63-74, 303-313, 5:137-178). This was largely due to fact that like Babylon, Rome was the power that ruled over Judea and which eventually destroyed the Temple (on the same day of the year, in fact). As for as Revelation is concerned, Babylon "is the great city that is ruling (present tense) over the kings of the earth" (17:18), which could only refer to Rome. It is a city of great wealth and power at the hub of an international trade network (ch. 18), accessible by ship; the goods mentioned include articles of citron-wood that were prized by Rome's arisocracy, grain which Rome had shipped in from Egypt, and slaves shipped to the city like chattal. Again, the reference can only be to Rome. It is symbolized by a woman sitting on seven hills (17:9), and this is precisely how the goddess Dea Roma (the personification of Rome) was depicted on coinage and in statues at the time: as a woman sitting on the Septimontium, or seven hills, of Rome. Dea Roma was also claimed to have had a secret name and she was identified with the lupa "she-wolf" that nursed Remus and Romulus; similarly the harlot of Babylon had a secret name (17:5) and lupa also had the meaning of "prostitute". Babylon was depicted having already martyred many Christians (17:6), which corresponds to the Neronian persecution of AD 64. And Babylon had a series of five fallen kings (17:10) and one of the former kings would return to destroy the city with fire (17:11, 16; cf. 13:3); this corresponds to the Sebastenoi line of Roman emperors and expectations about Nero redivivus in pagan, Jewish, and Christian sources. The fifth book of the Sybilline Oracles (written between AD 70 and 132) also attested a version of the Nero redivivus myth and repeatedly referred to Rome as "Babylon" (lines 137-170, 394-399): "a great king of great Rome, a godlike man from Italy ... who played at theatricals with honey-sweet songs ... who will destroy many men and his wretched mother, he will flee from Babylon", "a great star will come from heaven to the wondrous sea and will burn the deep sea and Babylon itself and the land of Italy", "city of Latin land, as a widow you will sit by the banks and the river Tiber your consort will weep for you" (cf. Isaiah 47:2-9, Revelation 18:7 in reference to Babylon).

    Within the context of 1 Peter, the use of "Babylon" to refer to Rome is part of the author's allusion to the situation of the Babylonian exile. The epistle is loosely modelled on Jeremiah's "Letter to the Exiles" (Jeremiah 29), which was also imitated elsewhere (e.g. the "Letter of Jeremiah" in 1 Baruch 6). There Jeremiah advised the exiles to "build houses and settle down", "marry and have sons and daughers", and "seek the peace and prosperty of the city to which I have carried you into exile" (v. 5-7). He tells the exiles that Babylon is accorded a duration of time to hold supremacy over the earth (v. 10), during which God's people should live out their lives and be in submission to the king of Babylon: "B ow your neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon; serve him and his people, and you will live. ...Do not listen to the words of the prophets who say to you, 'You will not serve the king of Babylon,' for they are prophesying lies to you" (27:12-14). Implicit in this advice is the promise that Babylon's supremacy will eventually come to an end at the time of God's choosing, then God promises that " I will gather you from all the nations and places where I have banished you" (29:14). In imitation of this, the author of 1 Peter referred to his readers as " exiles scattered throughout the provinces " in Asia Minor (1:1), and advised them " to live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear " (v. 17). Then in ch. 2 he continued:

    1 Peter 2:11-17: " Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. ...Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God's slaves . Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor".

    The situation of the letter is one of persecution of Christians by authorities (1:6-7, 2:21-24, 3:9-18, 4:1, 12-15), and the author promises that the present state of affairs will soon come to an end (1:5, 2:12, 4:7), with the implication of judgment against those in power who did not fear God (4:17). The reference to Babylon in 5:13 imo forms part of the author's comparison with the situation of the Babylonian exile (involving not just living among pagans in a diaspora but submitting to the authority of the king of Babylon) and thus has reference to the power whose provinces (named in 1:1) the letter's recipients found themselves exiled in, and whose emperor and governors the Christians should submit themselves to, i.e. Rome.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I find this to be a incredibly diverse thread. Isn't it funny how this thread has covered such wide-ranging subjects as the origin of monotheism, Gehenna, narrative style in Hebrew, Boeotian mythology, sects in Second Temple Judaism, Babylon as a metaphor for Rome....that's what I like about biblical topics, the potential topics are endless....

  • binadub
    binadub

    Leolaia:

    Thanks for your reply.

    The traditions locating Mark in Egypt place him in Alexandria, not 130 miles to the south at the Babylon Fortress in Old Cairo, nor do they posit Peter as accompanying him in Egypt. . . .

    I'm very familiar with the popular orthodox (Catholic) "traditions" about the scripture 1 Pet.5:13 assigning the greeting from "Babylon" as meaning Rome as well as the Coptic history of Mark in Alexandria. You find a different perspective if you do a search on the Coptic history of Christianity (Egypt) in the first century.

    Scholars are in disagreement about those traditions. My inclination is to agree with the scholars who believe that "Babylon" in 1Pet.3:15 was the important Roman fortress (at the time) of Babylon in Egypt where a large population of Jews resided--as they did in Alexandria as well. There were a lot of Jews in Egypt who had migrated there from the Babylonian (Mesopotamia) diaspora. As you know, Peter sent Mark to Egypt, Peter being the apostle to the Jews; Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

    Here are some links if you are interested:

    The author of this essay believes 1Pet.5:13 was referring to Babylon in Egypt:

    http://www.oodegr.com/english/papismos/dogma/petros_rwmi1.htm

    Fragments of the "Gospel of Peter" were found in Egypt:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Peter

    The Gospel of Peter was recovered in 1886, by the French archaeologist, Urbain Bouriant, in the modern Egyptian city of Akhmim (sixty miles north of Nag Hammadi). The 8th or 9th century manuscript had been respectfully buried with an Egyptian monk. The fragmentary Gospel of Peter was the first non-canonical gospel to have been rediscovered, preserved in the dry sand of Egypt. Publication, delayed by Bouriant until 1892, occasioned intense interest. From the passion sequence that is preserved, it is clear that the gospel was a narrative gospel, but whether a complete narrative similar to the canonical gospels or simply a Passion cannot be said.

    http://www.copticchurch.net/topics/synexarion/mark.html

    Under "Quick Facts":

    He [Mark] was the founder of Christianity in Egypt or in Alexandria at least. He came to Alexandria approximately 48 AD. Foot Note: According to some sources, St. Peter preached in Babylon about the same time St. Mark was in Alexandria, however he [Peter] focussed on the Jews of Babylon (A city near Memphis, Cairo now ).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter

    Church tradition ascribes the epistles First and Second Peter to Apostle Peter, as does the text of Second Peter itself. First Peter implies the author is in "Babylon," which has been held to be a coded reference to Rome (1 Peter 5:13). Although, Babylon was an important fortress city in Egypt, just north of today's Cairo and this fact is combined with the "greetings from Marc" (1 Peter 5:13), who is regarded as founder of the Church of Alexandria (Egypt); thus other scholars put the First Peter epistle to be written in Egypt.Some[who?] scholars regard First Peter as not authored by him, and there is still considerable debate about the Petrine authorship of Second Peter. However the Greek in both books is similar, and the early Church was adamantly opposed to pseudographical authorship.

    These are a few examples of scholars who do not agree with the "traditional" understanding that Peter meant Rome when he said Babylon. There is also debate as to whether "Babylon" was really even a popular metaphor for Rome in the first century.

    Thanks,
    ~Binadub

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety

    I think Peter's Babylon refers to Rome, which is where he wrote the epistle.

    Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1:1, AD 189

    Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.ii.html

    Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:2, AD 189

    Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority hat is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html

    Eusebius Church History, book 2:

    The Preaching of the Apostle Peter in Rome.

    But this did not last long. For immediately, during the reign of Claudius, the all-good and gracious Providence, which watches over all things, led Peter, that strongest and greatest of the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others, to Rome against this great corrupter of life. He like a noble commander of God, clad in divine armor, carried the costly merchandise of the light of the understanding from the East to those who dwelt in the West, proclaiming the light itself, and the word which brings salvation to souls, and preaching the kingdom of heaven.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.vii.xv.html

    Apparently Peter did a lot more in Rome than to be martyred. According to Eusebius here, he went to Rome during Claudius' reign. Claudius was emperor to 54AD.
    Traditionally, he was martyred under Nero in 64-67 AD. That is a good span of time.

    Scholars are in disagreement about those traditions. My inclination is to agree with the scholars who believe that "Babylon" in 1Pet.3:15 was the important Roman fortress (at the time) of Babylon in Egypt where a large population of Jews resided--as they did in Alexandria as well. There were a lot of Jews in Egypt who had migrated there from the Babylonian (Mesopotamia) diaspora. As you know, Peter sent Mark to Egypt, Peter being the apostle to the Jews; Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

    Revelation also speaks of "Babylon." I really doubt it referred to an Egyptian fortress.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    There were a lot of Jews in Egypt who had migrated there from the Babylonian (Mesopotamia) diaspora.

    There were lots of Jews in Rome as well, so much so that they were at one point exiled by Emperor Claudius.

    Fragments of the "Gospel of Peter" were found in Egypt:

    Lots of fragments of many writings have been found preserved in Egypt, for obvious reasons.

  • binadub
    binadub

    botchtowersociety:

    Granted, your opinion is certainly well with the mainstream opinion of popular orthodoxy. :-)
    The third-century Cataholic historians you quoted unquestionably laid the foundation for asserting that Peter's ministry established the church of Rome in Rome, even though the principle apostle there was Paul. The position is less supported by Josephus and Philo.

    Scholars are in disagreement about those traditions. My inclination is to agree with the scholars who believe that "Babylon" in 1Pet.3:15 was the important Roman fortress (at the time) of Babylon in Egypt where a large population of Jews resided--as they did in Alexandria as well. There were a lot of Jews in Egypt who had migrated there from the Babylonian (Mesopotamia) diaspora. As you know, Peter sent Mark to Egypt, Peter being the apostle to the Jews; Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

    You countered: Revelation also speaks of "Babylon." I really doubt it referred to an Egyptian fortress.

    Most bible theologians don't think it refers to Rome either. :-)
    (Some do--e.g., the Preterists who believe all of Revelation was fulfilled in the first century CE/AD.)

    As I pointed out, the Rome theory is the most prominent in orthodox Christianity (for obvious reasons). Naturally, for every reference you could quote in support of Roman Catholic history, there are scholars who could be quoted who disagree. Evidence is sparce and proof doesn't exist.

    With reference to Jewish populations between Rome and Egypt in the first century, here are a few (if you are interested):

    http://www.livius.org/di-dn/diaspora/rome.html

    It is possible to estimate the number of Roman Jews during the reign of Augustus. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus mentions a lawsuit in which 8,000 Jews from Rome sided with one of the parties (Jewish antiquities 2.80). They must have been adult men, because women and children were not permitted to take part in a lawsuit. Since a nuclear family consisted of at least four or five members, there must have been some 40,000 Jews. It is likely that this number rose after the mass deportation of prisoners of war after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE. This is mirrored by the enormous size of the Monteverde catacomb.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

    7000 Jews at the commencement of the reign of Caesar Agustus (27 BC to 14 AD).

    (To be fair, this represents the voting heads of families, so it is estimated it may have been around 35,000 counting women and children.)

    In Egypt, Alexandria alone is thought to have had over a million Jews whereas the population of Jews in Rome is estimated in the 10,000s to possible 100,000 at most.

    Notable: Alexandria is where the Septuigent scriptures were translated from Hebrew to Greek.

    http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/TheJewishDiaspora.htm

    The Jewish communities of the Diaspora were largely urban. Alexandria, according to Philo (Contra Flacum 43), boasted a Jewish population of over 1,000,000. Probably founded in the early years of the Ptolemy dynasty, at it's height, the Jewish community of Alexandria formed the majority in at least two out of the city's five major neighborhoods. While the Alexandrian Jews welcomed the Hellenistic influence, they also developed a rich Jewish culture. Greek largely replaced Hebrew as the major language of daily life. For the very first time, the Bible was translated, according to Jewish legend during the reign of Ptolemy II (285-246 BCE). The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible made the sacred text accessible to the entire Greek world.
    . . .

    The Jewish population of Rome may have numbered in the tens of thousands by the reign of Augustus. Twelve synagogue sites, and six burial sites have been identified in Rome dating from the first centuries BCE and CE.

    . . .

    Their crushing defeat in 117 CE left the once magnificent Alexandrian community, and the communities of Cyrene and Cyprus in smoldering ruin.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/diaspora.html

    . . . Rome itself, seems to have something on the order of ten different synagogue congregations, and the Jewish population of the city of Rome at its zenith was perhaps 100,000. Unfortunately, we have no archaeological evidence of the actual synagogue buildings themselves from the city of Rome but fortunately, a recent archaeological discovery from the nearby port city of Ostia, shows us one such congregation, in its very real setting.

    http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Ancient_and_Medieval_History/539_BCE-632_CE/The_Diaspora.shtml

    Alexandria, the capital of the Ptolemies and the intellectual center of Hellenistic civilization, became one of the most populous Jewish communities in the world between the third century BCE and the end of the first century CE, numbering several hundred thousand at least.

    ==============

    But these are only about the populations of Jews. There is just as remarkable a history of first-centiry Christianity in Egypt as there is in Rome if you look up Coptic history. Not to mention the rather close proximity of Egypt to Jerusalem. It is pretty well established that this is where the Septuigent was translated.

    But . . . we all have our reasons. :-)

    ~Binadub

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