The great crowd has no mediator. Jesus is only the mediator for the 144K

by blond-moment 45 Replies latest jw friends

  • sabastious

    The guy on the phone doesn't give a hill of beans about coming to the right conclusions. How could he say that the great crowd doesn't have a mediator? What kind of Kingdom of God do they think is running? There are human governments that would be considered superior to the system they say exists. What a bunch of idiots.

    Matthew 15 - 13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”


  • wannabefree
    is there any way we can comfirm this through the WTS? Would anyone know?

    It's not a secret, it's just not discussed that often in depth. Most JW's just assume Jesus is their mediator but in actuality the organization says he is the mediator of the new covenant, the new covenant is a covenant for a kingdom, this covenant is only between Jesus and his co-ruling 144,000 .... therefore, Jesus in the truest sense is not the mediator for all men, just for those who would be kings and priests ... the 144,000 .... once this is explained to most JW's, they would say ... "oh, okay, that makes sense".

  • sabastious
    It's not a secret, it's just not discussed that often in depth. Most JW's just assume Jesus is their mediator but in actuality the organization says he is the mediator of the new covenant, the new covenant is a covenant for a kingdom, this covenant is only between Jesus and his co-ruling 144,000 .... therefore, Jesus in the truest sense is not the mediator for all men, just for those who would be kings and priests ... the 144,000 .... once this is explained to most JW's, they would say ... "oh, okay, that makes sense".

    That's how a dictator would run things. Jesus is not a dictator.


  • designs

    Honestly what difference does it make, do you sleep better at night thinking you have a 'mediator'.

  • wannabefree

    Personally, I probably would be more willing to accept the Kingdom Covenant explanation if it was not lumped in with the "one mediator between God and men" at 1 Timothy. Perhaps the Bible does not allow a differentiation between the two ... if they could do it though the organization would have fewer issues over it in my opinion.

    ... of course that may reduce the power of the Governing Body's mediatorship ... that would be tragic.

  • yknot

    ya....all of it is patches to explain why the end ain't come, WTS is relevent and why we all should be in obedience!

    It has gotta be a pain to be a Brother assigned to answer calls........

    However since I am preparing for tomorrows meeting...... I will keep my good-dubbie tinfoil hat on and direct the board's attention to a proper dubbie response..... Matt 25:31-40 NWT

    31 "When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.' 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?' 40 And in reply the king will say to them, 'Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.'

    It is with this understanding that we joyfully apply the fine examples set forth for us in such articles by the Watchtower as Oct 15, 2009's "You Are My Friends" in paragraphs 14-18!

    Friendship With Christ Today

    14 Many of those first-century Christians had known Jesus personally or had seen him after his resurrection. Obviously, we have not had that privilege. How, then, can we be friends of Christ? One way is to obey the direction provided by the faithful and discreet slave class, which consists of Jesus' spirit-anointed brothers still alive on earth. Jesus promised that during "the conclusion of the system of things," he would appoint this slave "over all his belongings." (Matt. 24:3, 45-47) Today, the vast majority of those who seek to be friends of Christ are not members of this slave class. How does their response to the direction they receive from the faithful slave class influence their friendship with Christ?

    15 Read Matthew 25:31-40. Jesus called those who would make up the faithful slave class his brothers. In the illustration about the separating of the sheep from the goats, Jesus clearly states that he takes personally the way we treat his brothers. In fact, he said that the determining factor that would distinguish a sheep from a goat would be the way an individual treated even "the least of these [his] brothers." Therefore, the primary way that those with the earthly hope demonstrate their desire to be friends with Christ is by supporting the faithful slave class.

    16 If you hope to live on earth under God's Kingdom, how can you express your friendship toward Christ's brothers? Let us consider just three ways. First, by wholeheartedly sharing in the preaching work. Christ commanded his brothers to preach the good news worldwide. (Matt. 24:14) However, the remaining ones of Christ's brothers on earth today would be hard-pressed to shoulder that responsibility without the assistance of their other sheep companions. Really, each time members of the other sheep class engage in the preaching work, they help Christ's brothers to fulfill their sacred commission. The faithful and discreet slave class deeply appreciates this act of friendship, as does Christ.

    17 A second way that those of the other sheep class can help Christ's brothers is by financially supporting the preaching work. Jesus encouraged his followers to make friends for themselves by means of "the unrighteous riches." (Luke 16:9) Not that we can buy friendship with Jesus or Jehovah. Rather, by using our material assets to further Kingdom interests, we prove our friendship and love, not just in word, but "in deed and truth." (1 John 3:16-18) We provide such financial support when we engage in the preaching work, when we donate money toward the construction and maintenance of our meeting facilities, and when we contribute funds toward the worldwide preaching work. Whether the amount we contribute is small or great, both Jehovah and Jesus certainly appreciate our cheerful giving.-2 Cor. 9:7.

    18 A third way that all of us prove that we are friends of Christ is by cooperating with the direction provided by congregation elders. These men are appointed by holy spirit under Christ's direction. (Eph. 5:23) "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive," wrote the apostle Paul. (Heb. 13:17) At times, we may find it a challenge to obey the Bible-based direction given to us by the local elders. We are likely aware of their imperfections, and this may distort our view of their counsel. Still, Christ, the Head of the congregation, is pleased to use these imperfect men. Therefore, the way we react to their authority directly influences our friendship with Christ. When we overlook the faults of the elders and joyfully follow their direction, we prove our love for Christ.

    Do you want to be friends with Jesus?

    (yknot giggles and ducks out before the rotten fruit and veggies get tossed)

  • Old Goat
    Old Goat

    I'm not here to defend Watchtower doctrine, but this blatantly misrepresents what they teach. They do not teach that Christ does not represent "the great crowd". They teach that Jesus was the Mediator of the New Covenant the parties to which are God and the Bride of Christ. They believe the New Covenant is between God and Spiritual Israel alone. The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the propitiator for the Bride of Christ and the rest of the world. Watchtower doctrine, though perhaps convoluted, does not leave "the great crowd" without the covering of Christ's ransom. The Watchtower is correct in so far as they identify the purpose of a "mediator." A mediator is not a propitiator. I'm not going to explain the meanings of the original Greek words and such. If you're that interested, a little research will take you to them.

    The purposeful misrepresentation of this doctrine on the part of a few who knew what the Watchtower really teaches has made others indignant. They created a non-issue. Focus on the things that are wrong. Misrepresenting what is taught does not produce the results you may wish for. There are enough real issues on which to focus.

  • mrsjones5

    This is too easy. Here you go Old Goat:

    "Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members."Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace"pp.10-11

    "Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians? ... So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

    If Jesus is only mediator for the few thousand remaining remnant on earth, who is mediator for the millions of Jehovah's Witnesses that do not form part of the 144,000?

    "The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

    "They recognize that they are not spiritual Israelites in the new covenant mediated by Jesus Christ, nor part of the "chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."-1 Pet. 2:9. Yet they do benefit from the operation of the new covenant. They benefit from this just as, in ancient Israel, the "alien resident" benefited from residing in among the Israelites who were in the Law covenant.-Ex. 20:10; Lev. 19:10, 33, 34; Rev. 7:9-15. To keep in relationship with "our Savior, God," the "great crowd" needs to remain united with the remnant of spiritual Israelites." Watchtower 1979 Nov 15 p.27 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"

    Please tell me Old G, what has been misrepresented?

  • snowbird

    You beat me to it, Josie.

    In COC, Ray Franz mentions how this teaching made him ill.

    He quoted Fred Franz as saying that some would make Jesus of Nazareth the Mediator for every Tom, Dick, and Harry.

    What hubris!

  • Old Goat
    Old Goat

    The misrepresentation lies in the assumption that without a mediator, the great crowd are without the covering of christ's ransom. Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach that. You confuse their teachings on mediator and propitiator. Damn it. I'm not supporting their teaching. I'm saying that their teaching is misrepresented.

    The quotations you give us do not prove that they teach that the "great crowd" is without ransom benefits. All they prove is that Witnesses believe that there is no salvation outside the New Covenant arrangement.

    You've made this mistake of assuming that because the quotations use the terms that concern you that they say what you seem to think. In fact they say the opposite. The articles you cite teach what I said they teach. Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant between God and Spiritual Israel. In Biblical terms a "mediator" is a contract negotiator. The contract in this case is the New Covenant. A "propitiator" is a peace maker, a reconciler. In terms of raw lexicographical definition, they get that right.

    They reason that Spiritual Israel is a limited number, 144,000. This is probably wrong, but that's how they reason. What ever the number of Spiritual Israel, only they are in a relationship with Christ as "mediator." You confuse mediator with the concept of Christ as High Priest. Even witnesses recognize that he is high priest for all. As high priest he is "propitiator." As John says, that's for "not just our sins, but for those of the whole world."

    I'm not telling you to accept Witness teaching. Some of this is questionable. But it IS what they teach. They do NOT teach that the great crowd, the rest of humanity, or anyone approaching God is without ransom covering.

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