I have just realised what I said above....if Moses did not write the first 5 books of the bible...but Jesus says he did....how credible does that make Jesus?
Where does Jesus say that Moses wrote the first five books?
Peace,
tammy
Evidence for God...
by tec 251 Replies latest jw friends
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tec
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NewChapter
But we were talking about someone dying for a belief they knew was bogus because they invented it themselves.
The people that made up the prophecies are not the ones dying usually. It's the people that beleive the prophecies. Some people make up prophecies and really do believe them, but they are generally delusional. But that still does not change the fact that the prophecy was made up. So the ORIGINATOR of a prophecy makes it up, and then prophecies that people will figure it out. It doesn't have to happen in their lifetime---they just took the safe bet to shore up the prophecy against reality. However many people die in the process is irrelevant to this subject---they beleived the prophecy, they did not make up the prophecy.
NC
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tec
Prophets were killed.
And in this case, Christ is the one who died. "As in the days of Noah..." and "... but when the son of man returns, will he find faith on the earth?"
Peace,
tammy
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caliber
Is it realistic to know or understand all things ?
Ecclesiastes 11:5
New International Version (NIV)
5 As you do not know the path of the wind,
or how the body is formed [a] in a mother’s womb,
so you cannot understand the work of God,
the Maker of all things.Footnotes:
- Ecclesiastes 11:5 Or know how life (or the spirit) / enters the body being formed
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tec
Is it realistic or know or understand all things ?
It is not realistic for us to know or understand all things.
Peace,
tammy
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NewChapter
Well if you choose to accept this part of the bible at face value, that he was executed, that would leave me to wonder why. Why would Rome care about what some jewish guy was teaching his own people. Rome was generally tolerant of religious beliefs---if not respectful---so there is usually more to a story than religious persecution. Considering the divisions that followed, I think it is very likely that Jesus was much more the political figure than was portrayed by those who later tried to defend him.
Perhaps he WAS raising himself up as some kind of leader, in opposition to Rome, but he didn't write anything down. This left later writers free to defend and rewrite at will. When he said he was a king, he didn't mean on earth he meant in heaven. He was unjustly put to death! He was just misunderstood.
That story is really wonky, and the more I read of Roman history, the more wonky it becomes. There was definitely persecution, but what was the underlying issue? Christians craved persecution then (and some still today as shown by a number of members on this board). If they persecuted me, they will persecute you. It's sort of an identifying mark if you will. Were they completely innocent? Well just from what I've seen unfold here, I think they probably did things to knowingly bring on persecution, then cried and said they were just minding their own business---etc. At least to a degree.
So why was Jesus put to death? Was it over prophecy? Or was it over politics? Hard to tell. He never wrote anything down--which in retrospect seems quite odd. Afterall, he was always referring to older writings. He fully understood the power of the written word. He fully understood how things get lost in translation. But he chose to leave that to others to sort out.
NC
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tec
It doesn't matter what the Roman rulership thought. Or why they put him to death. And I think it is obvious that politics was involved, in terms of Pilate passing judgment. The NT makes references to people trying to trick him into speaking openly against Caeser, so they could have him charged with that, and so be rid of him.
It matters that He did not recant anything. A person does not usually die for something that they, themselves, invented. Therefore, making a prophecy about a future lack of faith, is not his attempt to cover his tracks (his lie); because he did not invent the idea himself, or God. (or he would not have been so willing to die for a lie he created)
You can posit that he was delusional, if you choose. But not that he made up a prophecy to cover his tracks.
Peace,
tammy
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NewChapter
But it DOES matter. You have indicated that Jesus died for prophecy. Maybe he died for political reasons, which would negate your argument.
If I believed in feeding the poor, but also sold drugs to make money to feed the poor---one could argue that I was in prison for feeding the poor. It absolutely does matter if you are going to make a claim that Jesus died for prophecy, that this was actually the true reason he was put to death. I don't think he was put to death over prophecy---but over political issues. If you want to say that Jesus died for political ideology, then I could go with that. You said he was put to death over prophecy.
I suspect you will go up and pick apart what you have said and find a way to tell me that I have made an assumption or a leap about what you said---but overall the message I got, in context with previous posts, is this was a discussion about people being willing to die for prophecy. You said Jesus died. I say he did not die for prophecy. Therefore, even if he made up the prophecies---he did not die for them. He died for other reasons. Why would the Romans care about Jewish prophecy----unless the prophet was stirring up political trouble.
NC
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caliber
What’s the difference between honest doubt and stubborn skepticism ? ..... about the same as stubborn faith maybe ?
It's in what you "choose to accept " .... beyond that it is to influence the choice of others
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tec
No, this was about someone making up a prophecy to cover their tracks... against being discovered in a lie they made up themselves.
Peace,
tammy