Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill

by gravedancer 70 Replies latest jw friends

gravedancer

Five Gospels,
Nice try but I won't allow you to redefine your terms
I dont recall needing you permission to do anything in life. what you want me to fill out the forms in triplicate if I want to say something?
In fact let's not redefine the terms then. Let's DEFINE them.
Five Gospels - what is mental illness? How about we try this definition? See if you agree with it:
What is mental illness?
Mental illnesses are severe disturbances of behavior, mood, thought processes and/or social and interpersonal relationships. There are many different types of mental illnesses. Some of the most common types are:
Personality Disorders. These are long-term problems in adjustment. There a number of different subtypes. These individuals might be described by one or more of the following: emotionally needy, inappropriately seeking attention, nonassertive, always getting into fights or trouble, volatile, unstable, or having a problem with anger.
Affective Disorders. These are disturbances in mood, usually indicated by profound sadness and noticeable changes in eating, sleeping and energy levels. Sometimes a disorder is indicated by sudden bursts of euphoria.
Anxiety Disorders. These are indicated by the presence of excessive fears, frequent complaints of bodily ailments (headaches, stomachaches, dizziness), and excessive nervousness lasting for weeks. These include panic disorder, excessive fears, and post-traumatic stress disorder.
Psychotic Disorders. These can be indicated by gross deterioration in behavior from previous levels, extreme disorientation and extreme confusion. Common signs are confusion (thoughts may jump from one idea to the next), hearing voices that are not there, excessive resentment and poor impulse control and behavior or habits that impress others as strange.
Avoidant Disorder. The individual is a loner who avoids peers for fear of rejection, embarrassment or criticism. This condition is sometimes mistaken for autism.
Paranoid Personality Disorder. The individual is very suspicious of others and quick to feel insulted and belittled. People with this problem may be volatile, stubborn, difficult to get along with, unreasonable, and have a tendency to overreact (make mountains out of molehills).
Severe Behavior Problem. These include self-injurious behavior, hyperactivity, extreme irritability and chronic aggression or antisocial behavior. Researchers have found that behavior problems are sometimes related to depression, paranoia, psychosis, underlying medical conditions or specific brain dysfunction.
Agree or disagree with the definition?
Sunchild

My opinion is that if you are religious/spiritual then you are mentally ill.
Is a little insanity really a bad thing? The sanest, most "rational" people I know are also the most boring.
*Rochelle.
---------
"I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."
-- Professor Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.
plmkrzy

Psychotic Disorders. These can be indicated by gross deterioration in behavior from previous levels, extreme disorientation and extreme confusion. Common signs are confusion (thoughts may jump from one idea to the next), hearing voices that are not there, excessive resentment and poor impulse controland behavior or habits that impress others as strange.

For example:........Flying a kite in a lighting storm
....................Building a machine that can fly
....................Talking to someone miles away on a wire
....................Traveling at speeds over 35 miles per hour when everyone knows that it's a scientific fact that the human body cannot withstand the pressure of such high speeds.
....................Making pictures that move
And what about
Brilliant (or so called) Doctor's that performed lobotomies on women who suffered from PMS Fact or fiction?
SO who was mentally ill?
The patient who did not understand what was wrong with her?
Or was it the psychiatrist who "knew"[or thought he knew based on his professional opinion] what was wrong and cut out a piece of her brain?
I regards to being "Needy." And?
There isn't anything veggie or mini, or other, that needs nothing. The moment you become something that needs nothing is the moment you become nothing.
Interesting thread
plmkrzy
"The fellow that agrees with everything you say is either a fool or he is getting ready to skin you."
- Kin Hubbard
gravedancer

Unless 5 Gospels agrees to it please do not use the term "insanity".
5 gospels has to give permission to change the meaning or clarify it.
Please be sure to bow down to 5 gospels when you humbly ask to be allowed to use the term "insanity". It is "mental illness" being discussed here - not "insanity".
Thou shalt not REDEFINE the phrase!!!!
Perry

Their are many statements that touch on a philosophy that has bugged me for years since leaving the WBTS. And that is the question of hypocricy. I'll try to put it as simply as possible.
I believe it to be the height of all absurdity and delusional ignorance to believe that the absence of a formal religion somehow frees oneself from the effects of hypocricy. Allow me to explain.
The underlying tenet of many people's personal philosophy and which others seem to so haphazardly adopt in a post JW life is this : "I'm not a hypocrit because I don't allow others to enforce their codes on me anymore. I'm free."
I've got some sad news. The only way a person can be totally hypocrit free is to have a total lack of personal standards. While I concede some people may have achieved this, they are most likely to be locked up by society. A total standard-free life is impossible and yet survive in a free societal context. A person will at times find themselves violating the very standards they accept, even if it's just running a red light or speeding.
Functionally, guilt over personal violations are absolutely critical to building character, which accomplishes on the inside of a person what societ's laws must enforce on the outside. To me this is the purpose of religion, ethics, or what evey you choose to follow that you believe to be bigger than yourself.
Just because some people want to pervert religion, govt. or ethics doesn't mean we have to abandon to entire concept of standards; which for many are embodied in Karma, Jesus, or Buddah.
That way a person can live by an internal gyroscope as opposed to determining whether an action is "good" based on the likehood of getting caught and/or punished. Character is a far better way to live and is much less taxing on society.
Valis said:
those who can't live without a spiritual presence share the same kind of abberant behaviour. The creation of guilt where there should be none, the compulsion to control and direct the lives of others, are all signs of missing a few marbles at least.

Valis' comment above seems to indicate that guilt is bad. I agree, unless it is your own....then it's a good thing. I do not agree that it has anything to do with aberrant behavior at all, but rather a sign of character and responsibility to something other than to just yourself.
gravedancer said:
That is why I answer that anyone who puts their life on hold or lives for some belief system (instead of themselves) is unbalanced mentally.

Likewise, gravedancers' comment above seems to make the utterly incredible assumption that any standard of belief other than that which is personally beneficial is akin to mental illness and tantamount to putting your life on hold. This is just pure fantasy. It is appealing to westerners because of our individualistic values but in practicality just another delusion.
I believe such assertions are nothing more than unethical propaganda for a philosophical agenda; and if accepted become delusions. Therefore, if delusions are a key indicator of mental illness, then the axiom; "I have no standards therefore I am not a hypocric like the believers", is mental illness, or simply a childish attempt to shirk personal acountability.
gravedancer

Perry,
You quote me - but only half quote me.
gravedancer said:
That is why I answer that anyone who puts their life on hold or lives for some belief system (instead of themselves) is unbalanced mentally.
Ok - the first phrase "that is". Do you understand that it is a conclusion based on prior logic. If you want to quote it surely you should quote the prior logic too?
Some might recognize the flavor of my conclusion as having a basis in the works of Ayn Rand and the virtue of selfishness. A summary can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/ri/tucker/relativism/morality26.html
Perhaps you might consider the following examples (please note just a sampling not the complete set) of "putting ones life on hold" or making spiritual excuses:
- don't get a worldly education it will be no good after Armageddon
- don't pursue riches as the will throw their money in the streets in the last days
- keep on seeking first the kingdom
- do not be anxious over anything
- the Lord will provide
- it is sufficient to have just sustenance and covering
- bodily devotion is beneficial for a little (don't play too much sport)
- bad associations spoil useful habits
- keep buying out the time for spiritual interests
- the Lord took him
- it is god's will
- "a servant of god"
- tithing
- guilty conscience over personal sin that did not affect others
- fear not those who kill the body....
- don't take blood to preserve THIS life...
- I will go to heaven when I die
- if you are bad you will go to hell
- it's bad karma to do xxxx
I could go on for pages and pages. While much of this has a "JW flavor" many examples crossover into many other religious creeds and belief systems or the other belief systems have their own set.
Sure people are free to believe what they like (after they get permission from 5 gospels of course ) and anyone else is free to think about them, reason on their beliefs and express opinions about their beliefs.
Just because some people want to pervert religion, govt. or ethics doesn't mean we have to abandon to entire concept of standards; which for many are embodied in Karma, Jesus, or Buddah.
Are there good standards in some of the works of cited? Of course. Do you base your life on them and make sacrifices based on them? That's up to you.
Five Gospels

gravedancer,
You said:
Unless 5 Gospels agrees to it please do not use the term "insanity".
Actually, I will accept "insanity" because by definition one who is insane is "mentally ill." But thanks for considering my feelings.
Then you said:
5 gospels has to give permission to change the meaning or clarify it.
You have permission to clarify at any time, but not to change the meaning. Contrary to how you may have construed one of my previous comments, I'm not imposing my own personal rules here. To use an example from elementary logic, I might contend that people living in Miami are blessed with beautiful Florida weather. You, being the astute analytical type, may point out that some days in Florida are rainy or cold or that there are hurricanes. To this I reply: "Ah! But that is not what I mean by Florida weather!" So my response begs the question: what do I mean by Florida weather? If I do this so that my case can never be refuted, then I am guilty of introducing a fallacy of presumption, namely a question-begging definition. The possibility of finding an exception must always be present when making a generalization. If your reasoning is sound, then no disconfirmation will be forthcoming. In an earlier post you said:
No one has taken on the definition of mental illness so far. Is mental illness the same as mental imbalance? Is it the same as mental instability?
I believe it is...
That is why I answer that anyone who puts their life on hold or lives for some belief system (instead of themselves) is unbalanced mentally.
There are many things wrong with this (notwithstanding the fact that you present your belief without any evidence whatsoever). However, my main concern is that you are equating persons who are "unbalanced mentally" with those who are "mentally ill." It is here that I get the sense that the possibility of finding an exception to your assertion (religious inclination implies mental illness) is not present. For, what other qualities or behaviors might you believe mental illness "is the same as?" With such fluid terms, one could rightfully contend that someone who watches too much television and neglects spending quality time with her or his family is unbalanced mentally - thus "proving" that such persons are mentally ill.
You said:
Please be sure to bow down to 5 gospels when you humbly ask to be allowed to use the term "insanity". It is "mental illness" being discussed here - not "insanity".
No. As you previously stated, it is your assertion that religious inclination implies mental illness that is being discussed here.
You also said:
Thou shalt not REDEFINE the phrase!!!!
Yes. Thank you very much. I don't see how anybody can have a meaningful discussion if terms and phrases are being redefined. Do you?
I thank you also for posting your definition of mental illness. Now that we have that out of the way, let's return to your claim:
I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.
For the third and last time, on what grounds do you make such an absurd assertion?
You should note that this is not even as difficult to prove as your general (and more tenuous) claim that religious inclination implies mental illness - in which case you must demonstrate that, in general, people with religious inclinations "base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief."
Five Gospels
Perry

It is so sad to see someone throw all their reasonablness on the altar of their ideological salesmanagers to the glory of the god of "something from nothing", and then try to justify that position by villifying anothers' position, as if that would be proof of the validity of his own.
It is so obvious, gravedancer, that your anger (justified) at the WBTS has seriously left you wide open to having marketers of other ideologies do a brain scrambling number on you once again.
It appears that you have believed the lie that only ideologies based on athiesm are not oppressive, they are not religous by nature, and that the idea of total freedom can be attained.
People like to push the total freedom carrot to anesthesize their victims so that their own agenda can be pursued with as little resistance as possible.
One country's history books calls a certain group of people rebels, another country's books call the same group freedom fighters. Obviously some government must rule...so the real issue is which one is more beneficial and not the arbitrary characterizations the spin doctors assign.
You appear to be deep under the spell of the spinners of your own accepted ideology. The truth of the matter is that you are not free all. You are regurgitating the old party line..."religion is the opiate of the masses". Although the particular ideology (religion) that used that slogan has been throughly discredited, the same slogan is carried under different banners now.
IMHO, the only freedom that does actually exist for humans is the freedom to choose an ideology (religion) to live by. I discussed this in detail at this thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=22556&site=3
gravedancer

Actually Perry and 5 Gospels although I have been ripping you a little I respect your intelligence.
I have to run but will be back later to edit this post and respond to you both.
l8r
gd
RationalWitness

Gravedancer,
I was looking forward to your promised reply to Perry and Five Gospels, so just thought I'd bring this back to the surface for you. (Of course, I realize you've been busy posting obscene references to Christ's "second coming"...)
Cheers,
Rational

Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill

Share this