by gravedancer 70 Replies latest jw friends
Gravedancer, you said:
What relevance does that have to this thread?
The previous posters had mentioned rapid atheists vs rapid theists. I was offering a comment in line with what they had been discussing.
The purpose of the thread is to discuss how basing ones belief on an irrational premise is a form of mental illness.My apologies. I had no idea we were not allowed to diversify in our thoughts and comments in this thread.
Please continue without anymore of my imput.
GD
Let's concede that a jw is mentally ill because of his beliefs. If he later becomes an atheist, is he then automatically have a clean mental bill of health?
Another thought: Would pre galileoans who had a hunch that the earth was spherical be considered mentally ill, when god plainly stated in his word that the the earth was flat? What about pythagoreans and aristotaleans who had metaphysical beliefs? Were they mentally ill as well?
I suppose many religious people are a bit mentally ill. I would imagine that many atheists also have some mental problems. If you admit this, doesn't that make your whole thread pointless?
SS
144K + 1
Since there's no way to determine the validity of religious belief until after we've entered our graves, labeling a religious person as mentally ill solely on the basis of their belief in religion isn't any different than a religious person labeling an atheist as mentally ill because of their lack of belief in god.
It would seem highly probable obvious that if something is illogical or based on shaky assumptions that it might be invalid. If someone is a gambler is their course of action "valid" or "invalid"? Since you do not know if they will "hit the jackpot" and experience huge wealth as a result can we claim that gambling is and "invalid" course of action? Can we claim that gambling can be an addiction or that it might be a disease? Can we make these assertions without knowing the outcome? I think we can. In a like manner I have postulated that if people have no solid logical basis for their belief systems (ie - if they are just maybe's) that they are at serious risk. Risk of what, you ask? Risk of wasting their lives, risk of waiting for some future event, risk of deceiving themselves, risk of failing to make positive contributions to their society in terms of talent utilization. Are they free to believe what they want? Of course they are, just as in a free scoiety a gambler can waste every last penny.
I personally think that your labeling of religious folks as "mentally ill," simply because you don't happen to share their beliefs, puts you in the same class as Jehovahs Witnesses who condemn others for not believing as they do.You are personally free to think that. I know my views will prove and have proven unpopular. That doesn't mean I have to bend them just because the opinion polls are low on my views.
...Nevertheless, I also acknowledge that my beliefs are no more valid than anyone else's.I am not seeking to validate ot invalidate yours or my beliefs. I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that erquires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.
I hope that someday you'll learn humility and how to respect diversity of beliefs.Thats's a classic piece of psychology....nice try (and your response to this is that you aren't trying to use psychology - well the effect is the same). Just because my opinion makes you uncomfortable your natural reaction is to try and make me into the "badguy" or to silence me by trying to make me feel guilt.
I feel no guilt, no regret for this viewpoint. If you cannot properly defend your opinion thats fine. As far as my humility and respect goes - those are facts irrelevant to the content of this thread. You probably think I am some arrogant atheist - forget about me. You don't know me, I don't know you. I am not a fluff-poster and don't want to be. If you want to argue ideas and concepts that's fine. Don't try to control me and I won't try to control you. You think I am an ass - that's fine...I don't really care what anyone on here thinks of me as a person.
[
SS,
Let's concede that a jw is mentally ill because of his beliefs. If he later becomes an atheist, is he then automatically have a clean mental bill of health?Of course not. Just, how stupid do you think I am? (don't answer that - you might hurt my feelings)
I suppose many religious people are a bit mentally ill. I would imagine that many atheists also have some mental problems. If you admit this, doesn't that make your whole thread pointless?Let's tackle the easy part first - yes all my threads are pointless. Now that we have that out of the way...perhaps you would reconsider (as in re-read/rethink) the premise of my thread - that modelling one's life on a foundation that you KNOW is a "fat-maybe" is ludicrous. People have been called crazy for smarter ideas than that.
GD,
Res ipsa loquitur - Latin phrase meaning "the thing speaks for itself."
Later.
[QUOTE]the premise of my thread - that modelling one's life on a foundation that you KNOW is a "fat-maybe" is
ludicrous. People have been called crazy for smarter ideas than that.[QUOTE]
what you mean like thinking the earth went round the sun and that the world was round nt flat ... they were thought silly but they were right at the time.
t if you care what ppl think then youll always be a prisoner of current excepted thought.
if ppl think your mad maybe they should spend more time looking at the time they spend saying other ppl are mad.
gravedancer,
You said:
When someone hears voices in their head and they listen to the voices is that person mentally ill?I'll tell you how these three are different. The first person my very well have some kind of mental illness as this is more or less a textbook definition. In the second case, mental illness doesn't necessarily follow from this type of behavior. Some children, for example, have very real imaginary friends. As for the third person, try replacing the word "God" with "nation" or "ideology" and try asking yourself the same question. Many people do in fact base all their decisions and actions on some particular ideology and have "faith" that it is the "truth" or the best way of life for themselves and others. Must all convictions be grounded in absolute fact?When someone has an imaginary friend and the talk to the imaginary person, are they are mentally ill?
When someone lives their whole life and bases all their decisions and actions on what they think ("believe") some God tried to tell them (in most cases based on some ancient book), is that person mentally ill?
How are the 3 people different? Which one of them has a better basis for their actions?
You also said:
I made an assertion that people who base and run their whole lives on something that requires faith or belief (not fact) can be classified as mentally ill.On what grounds do you make such an absurd assertion? First you implicitly make an assertion that belief is warranted only if it is based on fact. This type of epistemology is known as Evidentialism. You are now treading in the domain of philosophy and metaphysics where one finds many schools of thought. For example, one rejection of Evidentialism is Reformed Epistemology, which holds that beliefs are warranted without evidence, provided they are grounded and defended against known objections. Of course, another may reject what one asserts as a well-grounded belief. My point is, that for you to make a clearly philosophical assertion that belief must always be based on concrete fact, and treat it (i.e. your assertion) as though it is a self-evident fact, is naive to say the least. Secondly, for you to explicitly assert that people who base their lives on something that requires belief (as opposed to evidence) may be classified as mentally ill is tantamount to saying that anybody who does not share your philosophical world-view, your own a priori convictions and your particular epistemological criteria, in short, anybody who does not think as you think is mentally ill!
I submit that you are not really that naive but you are trying to create a controversy for you own personal enjoyment. It appears as though you have succeeded.
Five Gospels
Maybe you're right Grave, but at least you're never alone when you're a schizophrenic.
They faught like warrior poets...and gained their freedom.
Hmmm, I was thinking about this after reading some of the first posts, so I'll throw in my 2 cents...people who need a Dog in thier life are definitely missing something, whether it be self esteem, any real mental ground (i.e a mind that is both logical and emotional and educated), and possibly a fulfilling life above all. I suppose what some schools of thought call co-dependency might come in to play as well. Just like the person that expresses co-dependency towards a spouse, or mate, with the incessant neediness, jealousy, fear of abandonment issues, etc...those who can't live without a spiritual presence share the same kind of abberant behaviour. The creation of guilt where there should be none, the compulsion to control and direct the lives of others, are all signs of missing a few marbles at least. Did I mention the real belief in fantasy like Revelation, prophetic dates, the existence of spirits good or bad, immaculate conception, resurrection, the flood, talking animals, the nephilim, and lest we forget the concept of ONE true religion? All of those things could be construed as a mental condition. Unfortunately you can't really delieve in the JW brand of Dog unless you buy the whole package, lest ye be labelled an Apostate. Most especially them but we could talk about other religions who share some of the same core beliefs. I compiled some sites for those of you interested...
The first one was my favorite..
http://www.walkertown.com/biblemad.html
http://truthbeknown.com/mental.htm
http://www.ymirtravel.com/spirits_and_demons.eng.htm
http://www.stpeters.sk.ca/prairie_messenger/spiritualityhealth_01_19.html
http://www.jungcircle.com/Australia.html
http://www.unomaha.edu/~wwwjrf/greiner.htm
http://www.helsinki.fi/~huuskone/Scn
http://atheism.about.com/library/weekly/aa012199.htm
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
Gerday Grave,
Excellent topic,
I cannot concede that those who believe in God are mentally ill, I remember following a thread on another list that debated a very similar topic.
The general concensus was that following extensive debate, it was in fact , harder to prove that a "God" was non existant, rather than prove a God was existant.
It would appear that "homo sapiens" for some reason, has a genitically pre-wired disposition to believe in the existance of "Gods" or some omnipotent being. Why is this so??
From the South American Jungles to the Borneo rainforests, all primitive cultures have this inbuilt disposition to belief in the supernatural.
There is a polynesian culture that has a belief in sharks as some form of supernatural entity, their spiritual leaders have been documented beyond all reasonable doubt as being able to "call up" and attract sharks to their immediate surroundings. How??
Im personally not able to believe the "he knows the hairs of your head" phillosophy, or the "personal relationship with an invisibile being" stuff.
However , after havng read some arguments for and against the existance of a "God", I personally like the idea of one existing.
I refuse to live my life feeling inferior because Im unable to have a "deep and meaningful relationship" with a non-provable and possibly "never existed", mythological, historical figure. (JC)
Your hypothesis does not consider the upbringing and inclusive "psychological conditioning" of people from birth.
If I, as a baby, am emmersed in " a psychologically manipulative enviroment" and Im continually told by my parents, friends, councellors etc, that Im abnormal if I dont believe their "crap"..........am I then mentally ill ?,
If I come to believe in "Jehovah" as an easier way to prevent internal "dissonence" and a possible threat to my sanity and social acceptance, am I then insane??
I think not.
There are many factors to consider, the fact that many of us have moved beyond the Jehovah and Jesus Christ of the Bible, is evidence to our "rational" or "free-thinking" ability. We all progress at different rates and the evidence supporting a incontestable final assumption is not indisputable.
My opinion is, your hypothesis that "Religiously inclined are Mentally Ill" is unprovable and un-supportable.
Thank you for giving me something other than "fluff" to think about
Michael (The Magnificent Aussie Hunter)
