Can i defend my Faith?

by mrbunyrabit 52 Replies latest jw experiences

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  Band on the Run

  I've always thought it was nonsense that from the time Twelve Apostles died (Paul was not one) to the late 1800s, Jehovah had no organization. Without the org, Christianity was only magically revealed in the late 1800s by a pastor who worshipped pyramids. Most of what he believed about pyramids themselves, devoid of prophecy, was completely untrue. Why would not Jesus give him accurate info about pyramids.

  I believe the WTBTs has never given us a specific date when Christianity completely disappeared from the earth. The Bible was not canonized until Constantine converted. So the life span of an apostle in the first century to Russell is close to two thousand years. Are we to believe that God or Jesus had no interactions with earth during this period. They cite Tyndale and a few others who were punished as heretics. Yet Tyndale and others NEVER believed in the WTBTS. Tyndale was a Protestant, not a Jehovah's Witness.

  So there is no bridge between maybe 60 or 70 C.E. and Russell's arrival. I remain curious as to when exactly did Russell establish God's org. Were his early theories sufficient? They are very vague about dates. When it comes to Russell, his life is well documented.

  Was Miller a JW? Barbour? Also, why would Jesus return to earth invisibly? What is Jesus doing that we can't see him? I never sensed an invisible presence during my life as a Jehovah's Witness. When Jesus was born, wise men came and celebrated his birth. Angels appeared to poor shepherds to announce the shattering news. Why is Jesus so covert now? One would think he was James Bond.
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  ZeusRocks

  I'm with cantleave on this...go to www.jwfacts.com. Then I would suggest you research the bible and how and when it was written and then edited and put together. After that, maybe go to www.talkorigins.org. You may not believe in evolution and may still believe in a global flood (which never happened and has been proven), but it is a scientific theory just like gravity.

  Beliefs that are not based on what can be deomonstrated as true, are pointless to everyone else except for the person who believes it.

  So go have a look at www.jwfacts.com, then research the bible itself from independent scholars and archaelogists, then take a look at www.talkorigins.org and if you still believe in any of the teachings of the Watchtower Org, then I'm afraid no one would be able to help you until something very personal happened to you within the org to piss you off enough that the blinders started to fall away without you realising it.

  At the end of the day you cannot defend the indefensible. You can argue a case for it, but it cannot be defended logically or rationally.
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  binadub

  mrbunyrabit:

  You have started a thread that will go way beyond what you will be able to address because it will bring up so many issues.

  However, the question I will ask you is one that eventually became a big issue for me when I was a JW starting to have serious doubts:
  Probably the most appealing doctrine that Jehovah's Witnesses use to entice new converts is their hope of never dying but surviving into a new earth that will be cultivated back to Edenic paradise during the thousand years. I asked elders, overseers and pioneers how we prove that from the Bible, especially since Revelation 20:7-21:5 seems explicit that none of that happens until after the thousand years has ended. How would you prove to me that resurrections, judgment, and cultivating the earth back to paradise is done by people during the thousand years?

  On your reply to another poster about shunning, you replied with a question, doesn't the Bible admonish one to not even eat with such a one.
  Who? The scripture says:

  But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

  A disfellowshipped person or "apostate" does not claim to be a JW brother.

  On evolution, there are two kinds of evolution (actually more than that, but for this response two): That which evidence is scientifically observable, and then there is that which is dogmatic (just like a lot of religion, keeps changing to make discovery fit theory). Many of the most ardent supporters of evolution as one sweeping theory believe it far more on faith than they admit. When you say you don't believe in evolution, I presume you may mean atheist evolution theory as opposed to "old-earth creationism" (as opposed to "new-earth creationism"). The "Punctuated Equilibrium" theory that Stephen Jay Gould promoted lends (imo) to the possibility of a non-literal Genesis biblical creationism.

  ~Binadub
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  ZeusRocks

  3) Why should i believe in a God who today talkes to us thought the bible, and a hand full of chosen ones who we cant see, and makes errors themselves. Where in the olden days, theres was Moses, Miracles, scrolls, And fireworks to say the least. What now, why doesnt he do that any more? Its not his will any more? why ?

  The stories of creation, the flood, Abraham, Moses, Exodus from Egypt, Miracles etc were written about a thousand years or so after these events supposedly took place. The reason they could get away with writing such fantastical stories is that people didn't have the tools to verify if they were true plus the shared ignorance of the world they lived in. Also the fact that their nation was so insignificant, weak and constantly under the rule of other nations, that their leaders and priests maybe felt they needed to give their people an identity to retain some form of unity and control.
  So by the time these stories were written, the area known as Israel today, had been influenced by myths from other nations that had held control over that region.

  He doesn't do them anymore, because they didn't happen in the first place.
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  Ding

  Prove from reliable historians that Jerusalem fell to Babylon in 607 BCE.
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  clarity

  MrBR .................

  " But doesnt the bible say you shouldnt even eat with that person anymore?"

  >

  Have a look at those scriptures again 1cor5:1 - 13 ....... do you see that this was specifically for that man who was screwing around committing incest and those of his illk!

  Take a look at 2cor 2:5 -11 written not too long after, Paul has relented about the severe punishment he gave for wrong doing, and recommends love and forgiveness.

  Certainly Paul was not saying to throw out people who think, or who question, or who don't do 'D2D work', who don't fill out a little piece of paper and hand it in every month!!, who buy presents and have a party on a birthday, or thanksgiving or Xmas ( Read Romans 14:4 -6 judging holy days)

  The scripture also is used that says to treat wrong doers just as Tax Collectors.

  Well, how did jesus treat Tax Collectors? He associated with them and reclined and dined with them!!!!

  Wasn't Matthew a Tax Collector?

  c
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  clarity

  MrBR .... for you

  The Watchtower Society's Central Dogma 1919

  http://www.jwfiles.com/wt_false_predictions/1919.htm
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  jwfacts

  jwfacts wrote:

  a very narrow opinion that I could support in its entirety.

  Did you mean "could not support ..." ?

  Thanks for picking up the error. Yes, I definitely meant that I could NOT support almost any Watchtower doctrine or moral stance. I each case based on morality, there are scenarios that the Watchtower's strict guidelines do not make sense.
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  Captain Obvious

  The only thing that points to the JWs as God's "chosen organization" is what? Their OWN list of criteria! Which happen to me written about them.

  Ike others have said, it is a house of cards. Find which one (any one) that falls for you, and the whole things comes down. Be it 607, the impossible Genesis account, 1914... You name it. Just look.

  Also, learn how to read the bible and put scriptures in CONTEXT. Something that is rarely done in a KH or WT article. Then read the main supporting scriptures for certain doctrines in context. It will open your eyes!

  Good luck on your search for answers
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  biometrics

  I've got some simple questions that any Jehovah's Witness should be able to answer without a problem:

  • Why did Jesus use consciousness after death in the Lazarus and the rich man parable (Luke)?
  • What does it mean by "cannot kill the soul" in Mat 10:28? ("Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.")
  • Is there any new testament scripture that succinctly shows there is no consciousness after death?