Help! HLC member coming

by PrincessCynic 63 Replies latest members private

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    I know that it's extremely rare for a jw to be a doc, but had to mention it. What are the chances right?

    Anyways, I don't think the medical stuff will just give you blood as wts makes jws believe. They discuss procedures with you prior to them proceeding with your decide. Some concerns you may want to discuss with your doctor before hand so in case of emergency and if you're unconscious they may look for alternatives first and blood only as last resort. HLC are regular elders with wts' training. I'm guessing wts has something put together as to what some alternatives to blood may be and these elders have that resource (never heard of actual publication though) at their disposal or they call the Bethal.

    As far as I know, once they find out that you accepted blood, they view that as an act of DA on your part - unless, so I wouldn't really believe everything others may say that you won't get kicked out - technically they view you as da not df but the final outcome is the same. Here's what Elder's book says:

    Willingly and unrepentantly taking blood.
    If someone willingly takes blood, perhaps because
    of being under extreme pressure, the committee
    should obtain the facts and determine
    the individual's attitude. If he is repentant the
    committee would provide spiritual assistance in
    the spirit of Galatians 6: 1 and Jude 22, 23. Since
    he is spiritually weak, he would not qualify for
    special privileges for a period of time, and it may
    be necessary to remove certain basic privileges.
    Depending on the circumstances, the committee
    may also need to arrange for an announcement
    to the congregation: "'The elders have
    handled a matter having to do with [name
    of person]. You will be glad to know that
    spiritual shepherds are endeavoring to render
    assistance." On the other hand, if the elders
    on the committee determine that he is
    unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation
    .

  • PrincessCynic
    PrincessCynic

    There was actually an elderly brother in my cong who was DF/DAd for accepting blood last year. Faithful his whole life then kicked out just before he died. His non-JW family were livid, understandably.

    I just know that if it came to a judicial I wouldn't be able to sit there and pretend I'd made a big mistake and was repentant. It's something I feel strongly about and I would be very angry at anyone who said I should have followed WT rules and died or let my baby die like a good JW. So disassociation would be the path I'd be forced to take and there'd be no way back from that for me.

    Let's just hope that everything goes smoothly and it won't come to that.

    I already had a lecture from my mum today about being careful not to socialise with other mums from my antenatal classes :( So fed up with this cult.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    You might want to email Randy Watters (aka Dogpatch) about this and/or the folks at AJWRB.ORG.

    If it is true that blood is no longer a disfellowshipping or disassociating offense...this needs to be proclaimed loudly.

  • Sapphy
    Sapphy

    HLC is trying to be proactive. Dead mothers & babies garner a lot of bad publicity. The HLC will advise you of what the kosher for JWs fractions are and which are "conscience matters", and try to get you to sign the directive. You can avoid signing it by saying you're still unsure of your personal decision and will pray about it. It is unlikely they'll do a follow up visit, as long as they have left the forms with you.

    Also, check your blood card, I'm in the UK too & the last one I signed a few years ago had a clause stating that my medical records could be shared with HLC members. You might want to revise your current blood card if you still have one. You may also want to talk confidentially with your doctor about your own wishes so they are on record.

    Good luck & best wishes!

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    You essentially have two options: (1) lie and protect your fade or (2) tell the truth and either be shunned or face a judicial committee.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Princess, email Zen Dean from AJWRB.ORG at [email protected]. His information will fix you up good. We plan on forming our own HLC committees to "greet" the WT's HLC members in the emergency room situations.

    It's time to get bold in helping save people's lives. But without argumentation and malice, but with the support of the medical profession.

    Randy

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    Princess, likely he was DFed not for blood transfusion, which they are loathe to do for publicity's sake, but for a "bad attitude" or some other perceived sin associated with the case. It just isn't happening now.

    Randy

  • undercover
    undercover

    This does seem unusual. I wonder, like others, if this was instigated by family. It makes me wonder also if they're amping up keeping tabs on medical records of JWs in countries where the laws aren't as strict as the HIPPA laws here (US) are...

    I feel for you. I've been in a situation where I had to tippytoe around JW family but was bound and determined to follow my own counsel regarding the blood issue. I managed to never see an HLC member or even an elder.

    This is tough. If it were me, I would never sign any medical document handed to me by an elder. I would explain that I have my doctors, I have good rapport with them and they understand my position. I wouldn't tell them any names either. Just let them know that if an issue arises, you will contact them. That's me. And you have to understand that standing up to them may put you in a vulnerable position.

    Good luck...and keep us posted

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Can you talk with your doctor and hospital first? They can help you beat the JWs. First of all, anything you tell a hospital/doctor is likely very confidential. Second, if blood became an issue, they can keep your taking blood a secret from anyone else. Instead of giving you a blood transfusion in the room, they can order EVERYONE else out (including your husband) and move you to a special section/operating room for a blood transfusion(and not tell your husband/family the whole story of what is going on).

    With the HLC member, just listen to what he says, take forms from him, tell him you'll look it over with your doctor, and then (throw out the forms)! Try not to sign anything. If you do sign, get with your doctor and the hospital ethics to see how you can revoke your signatures afterwards (newer signed advanced healthcare directive).

    Make sure your doctor and hospital have the right forms. Talk with the hospital's ethic committee too. I am sure they will be more then willing to help you live and protect your privacy.

    The baby is likely protected by the State government. The State government will step in and take custody away from the parents to give blood transfusions, most likely.

    Chances are that you will not need a blood transfusion. But, I just had a family member have a baby. She had to get several units of blood after an emergency C-section. About 3 weeks later, she developed a life-threatening blood clot (not related to the blood transfusion - but from being pregnant, having major surgery/trauma). They put her on blood thinners, and she had to have more blood transfusions after she started bleeding again too much. Pregnant women and women who give birth sometimes do need blood transfusions to live.

    In the UK, there is a doctor named Sarah Woolley. She has written medical articles showing how JWs don't make autonomous decisions. Get in touch with her. I think she is in Bristol. Google to find her, as I can't post her phone number. PM me if you have trouble locating her.

    **********

    • Editorial

    Jehovah’s Witnesses in A&E

    1. J Beezhold 1,
    2. B A Foëx 2

    +Author Affiliations

    1. 1 Norfolk Mental Health Partnership Trust, Norwich
    2. 2 Manchester Royal Infirmary, Manchester
    1. Correspondence to:? Julian Beezhold? County Crisis Resolution Home Treatment Team, Grebe House, Hellesdon Hospital, Drayton High Road, Norwich, NR6 5BE; [email protected]

    What are the rights of Jehovah’s Witnesses within the emergency department?

    Jehovah’s Witnesses of all ages who present to emergency departments requiring blood transfusion continue to pose significant ethical and legal dilemmas for clinicians. This arises from the perceived conflict between the clinician’s professional obligation and the legal rights of the patient.

    Sarah Woolley’s paper in this issue presents a lucid, well thought through, and carefully researched discussion of these issues that is relevant for all emergency care clinicians; and includes some more detailed information about the legal position in the United Kingdom.1

    The key issues highlighted by Woolley are:

    1. the rights of adult and child Jehovah’s Witnesses requiring urgent transfusion

    2. the duties of the treating clinician

    3. the ethical and legal grey areas raised by the interaction of patient autonomy, consent, capacity, and duty of care in these challenging circumstances.

    English courts have clearly stated that, when in doubt in emergencies, the first principle is to act to preserve life.2 This deceptively simple rule immediately runs into the problem of what constitutes doubt, and at what point should clinicians be doubtful.

    Woolley makes a case that Jehovah’s Witnesses who refuse a transfusion by means of an advance directive blood transfusion refusal card, are not making this decision autonomously, because of the influence of their Church. She goes on to suggest that sufficient doubt may exist regarding the validity of these cards, so as to justify considering the administration of blood products in life-threatening situations despite the presence of a transfusion refusal card.

    On the other hand it may be argued that this view conflicts with the presumption of capacity enshrined in English law; and also the right of patients to refuse medical treatment for reasons which are rational or irrational or for no reason3 and even in circumstances where (she) is certain to die in the absence of treatment.4

    This dilemma highlights a grey area in English law. There is reasonable clarity about the information patients should have in order to make an informed decision in favour of an intervention. However, the law is unclear as to what, if any, information should be provided to a patient who a priori merely wishes to refuse a specific intervention.

    The different rules for consent to intervention and for refusal of intervention may be illustrated by considering the situation of the Jehovah’s Witness at home, who, despite life-threatening bleeding, refuses to see a doctor. What information, if any, should doctors offer in this situation?

    Woolley’s discussion of the autonomy issue has many wider resonances. For example, can consent to any life-saving procedure in an emergency, when the patient is likely to be confused, frightened and in pain, ever be considered truly autonomous? Often it will not, but it may well be good enough, especially as in most cases the “reasonable patient” would give consent anyway.

    Doctors will continue to be presented with critical dilemmas without easy answers, and may be held accountable for their actions afterwards. In addition to Woolley’s good advice we would add two points. Firstly, share difficult decisions with colleagues: an approach agreed in this way is easier to defend. Secondly, despite existing law, rulings and guidelines some of these cases will end up in litigation. So, meticulous documentation of discussions and of the reasoning behind key decisions is essential.

    What are the rights of Jehovah’s Witnesses within the emergency department?

    REFERENCES

    1. Woolley S. Jehovah’s Witnesses in the emergency department: what are their rights? Emerg Med J . 2005: 11;000-000,.
    2. HE v A Hospital NHS Trust [2003] EWHC 1017 (Fsm), [2003] 2 FLR 408, [2003] Fam Law 733.
    3. Sidaway v Board of Governors of the Bethlem Royal Hospital and the Maudsley Hospital [1985] AC 871, 904F.
    4. In Re T (Adult: Refusal of Treatment) [1993] Fam 95 at 121H (per Lord Justice

    Skeeter

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    Didn't realise I couldn't be DFd! Even if it's pre-meditated?

    Unless there has been a HUGE change recently, that just is NOT (quite) true.

    True: No longer disfellowshipping people for taking blood transfusions.

    FACT: Anyone who willing takes a blood transfusion is considered to have DISASSOCIATED THEMSELVES BY THEIR ACTIONS.

    RESULT: THE SAME.. SHUNNING.

    DiamondLiz has it right:

    On the other hand, if the elders
    on the committee determine that he is
    unrepentant, they should announce his disassociation
    .

    Doc

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