Theists, why does God allow suffering.. (page 43)

ablebodiedman

Ablebodiedman..
How do you explain why God allowed countless animals to suffer before humans even existed, before mankinds rulership began? At that point, surely, it was all under God's rule?

What makes you think there was suffering?

Things were good when God first created the animals:

Genesis 1:24-25

And God went on to say: "Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind." And it came to be so. 25 　And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good.

"If you see suffering it is because of the futility of a rulership that has become seperated from God."

The whole creation is suffering under the futility of allowing the most intelligent men to decide what they think is the right thing to do.

God is "allowing" this to happen so you can measure its value.

You can see the futility!

You can look around the world and see for yourself the cumulative value of all those decisions that the most intelligent men are making.

and yes, those decisions greatly effect the animals.

Eventually those men will be replaced by; "the sons of God".

Romans 8:18-22

18

　Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19　For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20　For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21　that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22　For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

abe

Focus

ablebodiedman, how did God drown the fishes and other marine creatures during the Great Flood?

__

Focus

("Me Bible is Busted!" Class)

defender of truth

Ablebodiedman, do you think that animals did not hunt each other before mankind existed?

defender of truth

http://livescience.com/14320-largest-sea-predators-fossils.html

ablebodiedman

Ablebodiedman, do you think that animals did not hunt each other before mankind existed?

Defender of truth,

Do you think that God cares about animals and will intervene to protect them after he has given men the opportunity to see how futile their most intelligent decisions are and the effect that their decisions presently have on the animal kingdom and the fish in the sea?

Isaiah 66:3

"The one slaughtering the bull is as one striking down a man. The one sacrificing the sheep is as one breaking the neck of a dog.

Isaiah 11:6-9

　And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7　And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8　And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9　They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

Matthew 10:29

　Do not two sparrows sell for a coin of small value? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without YOUR Father’s [knowledge].

abe

ablebodiedman

Defender of truth,

Do you thing the decisions that the most intelligent men are able to make are keeping the earth and its inhabitants safe?

Do you think that God would still say that it is good?

Genesis 1:21

　And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. And God got to see that [it was] good.

Don't get the point?

Watch the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAL9Xvrg3hI

The cumulative value of the decisions that the most intelligent men are making!

abe

defender of truth

I said: "Ablebodiedman, do you think that animals did not hunt each other before mankind existed?"

You said: "Defender of truth,
Do you think that God cares about animals and will intervene to protect them after he has given men the opportunity to see how futile their most intelligent decisions are and the effect that their decisions presently have on the animal kingdom and the fish in the sea?"

...You didn't reply to my question.

ablebodiedman

I said: "Ablebodiedman, do you think that animals did not hunt each other before mankind existed?"

I really do not know the answer to that question however, I suspect that they did.

On the other hand if lions are going to eat straw in the future it brings doubts to my suspicion.

If that is God's intention for the future then did animals hunt each other in the Garden of Eden?

Either case I am looking forward to a time when the most intelligent men who presently make all the decisions are held accountable for ruining the earth and its creatures and causing such an immense amount of suffering.

If those most intelligent men are allowed to continue then I think the earth and its creatures are doomed to even more immense suffering far beyond anything we have witnessed or can presently understand.

I hope Jesus Christ comes soon!

abe

ablebodiedman

Defender of truth,

Now watch the video I posted above and answer my question:

Do you think that God would still say that it is good?

abe

defender of truth

You asked:"Do you think the decisions that the most intelligent men are able to make are keeping the earth and its inhabitants safe?
Do you think that God would still say that it is good?"
This question seems completely off topic. You are basically asking a rhetorical question of whether man causes many animals to suffer. Different topic. We're talking about why God allows animal suffering.
Still, if you want to propose that God has allowed man to ruin His creation, and that he originally created animals to not suffer, you would then have to provide a solid reason as to why God has allowed man to harm the animals, when He has the power to prevent it at any point.
Does He even care about them?
And, assuming that you will then begin to talk about man's free will being an important factor in letting people run around drowning kittens, setting fire to dogs, and stomping on swans until they die, ask yourself if you believe we should let animal abusers run free.. or do you feel it is right to imprison them?
Because you can't tell me, surely, that if you were God you would allow animals to be abused and murdered?

....
I said: "Ablebodiedman, do you think that animals did not hunt each other before mankind existed?"
You replied:"I really do not know the answer to that question.."
.. Please research the subject then. I gave you an example to start you off, but there is plenty of evidence that animals did hunt and kill each other in violent and merciless battles for survival long before man's dominion over the earth began.
In which case, God's idea of all animal creation being 'good' involved an incredible amount of pain, violence and death, without there being any human mismanagement to blame.

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

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