+$4.00 Gasoline. How does it change the Energy game

by designs 89 Replies latest social current

  • designs
    designs

    bts

    To give you and alternate view of solar I'll use my house which has a 5Kw system. Previously we ran utility bills of $250.00-$300.00 per month. Now they are on average $4.00 per month. Just got my bill today and I am $70.00 to the good this year alone. I installed the system in 2007. When I get an Ev in a couple of years I will add a few panels and the appropriate gear and batteries and be all set.

    We can build a megawatt solar farm on about 3 acres, this is down from 5 acres just 3 years ago. Efficiency is 16-24% now with some new modules coming later this year in the 30% range.

    Our local Nuclear Plant, San Onofre is having ongoing maintenence problems, two radiation leaks in the past 2 months. Radioactive material is being stored on site as there is no place for it to go. Edison announced it will have to store them on the ocean bluffs for 200-300 years. Edison removed one of the older radioactive turbines in November and is storing it on a salt bed in Utah, for how long- open ended. The sea wall is now lower than the protective sea wall breached in Fukushima. www.sanclementegreen.org

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    1400 watts per square meter with no atmosphere

    1000 watts per square meter with atmosphere and no clouds

    1 square meter = 10.76 square feet

    1000/10.76 = 93 watts per square foot maximum

    According to the article BTS posted, in Arizona, in July, it’s about 240 watts per square meter per 24 hrs.

    240/10.76 = 22.3 watts per square foot

    Let’s be optimistic and say in a few years our solar panels will hit around the maximum theoretical conversion rate at 85%

    22.3*.85 = 18.95 watts per foot per day

    Multiply by 24 since the article said it was averaged over the entire 24 hr period

    18.95*24 = 455 watt-hrs per day

    33,700 watt hours in a gallon of gasoline is the rating the EPA uses.

    33,700/455 = 74 square feet.

    Right now, I think most panels are more towards 25% conversion rate.

    33,700/(22.3*.25*24) = 251 square feet. That seems about right.

    14 or 15 of the 3 X 6 panels should do it. And the panels would probably cost in the neighborhood of $5,000. And of course, that’s Arizona, in July. Might take a few more panels for the rest of us. And that’s only 1 gallon equivalent, so your commute would need to be very short each day.

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    Edit: I fixed a screwup.

    Oh, so let's say you do that every day. How long is the payoff.

    Year 1 $5,000/365 = $13.7/gallon

    Year 2 $5,000/730 = $6.8/gallon

    Year 3 $5,000/1095 = $4.5/gallon

    Year 4 $5,000/1460 = $3.4/gallon

    Year 5 $5,000/1825 = $2.7/gallon

    Year 6 $5,000/2190 = $2.2/gallon

    Year 7 $5,000/2555 = $1.9/gallon

    Year 8 $5,000/2920 = $1.7/gallon

    Year 9 $5,000/3285 = $1.5/gallon

    Year 10 $5,000/3650 = $1.36/gallon

    Got to today's gas prices in my area by year 4. That's actually not that bad of a break-even time.

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    Ohhhhh mercy how can people be so stupid in this country?????

    Not Burn of course, he's simply dishonest and refuses to let a good talking point go by.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    Let’s be optimistic and say in a few years our solar panels will hit around the maximum theoretical conversion rate at 85%

    Show me a pathway to do it. I am not familiar with any technology that can acheive even 50%, let alone 85%.

    Let's remember also that it isn't just efficiency, it is efficiency for the price. Thin film is less efficient than crystalline silicon, for example, but it is cheaper to produce.

    Multiply by 24 since the article said it was averaged over the entire 24 hr period

    I think your math might be faulty too. @240 watts per m2 per day in Arizona as per the article you are averaging 10 watts per hour, 240/24. That is 10 watts an hour per m2 over that period.

    I don't see the point in going to square feet. But that amounts to less than a watt per square foot per hour, not 22.3 watts.

    Evolution has had about 3 billion years to work on the problem. Photosynthesis isn't good for more than about 5%.

    1400 watts per square meter with no atmosphere

    We live at the bottom of an atmosphere.

    The actual figure varies with the Sun angle at different times of year, according to the distance the sunlight travels through the air , and depending on the extent of atmospheric haze and cloud cover. Ignoring clouds, the daily average irradiance for the Earth is approximately 250 W m -2 (i.e., a daily irradiation of 6 kWh/m 2 ), taking into account the lower radiation intensity in early morning and evening, and its near-absence at night.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insolation

    Right now, I think most panels are more towards 25% conversion rate.

    Your estimates are incredibly rosy. Slash that in half.

    Typical solar panels have an average efficiency of 12%, with the best commercially available panels at 20%.

    And there are other factors at play as well.

    Uncertainties in revenue over time relate mostly to the evaluation of the solar resource and to the performance of the system itself. In the best of cases, uncertainties are typically 4% for year-to-year climate variability, 5% for solar resource estimation (in a horizontal plane), 3% for estimation of irradiation in the plane of the array, 3% for power rating of modules, 2% for losses due to dirt and soiling, 1.5% for losses due to snow, and 5% for other sources of error. Identifying and reacting to manageable losses is critical for revenue and O&M efficiency. Monitoring of array performance may be part of contractual agreements between the array owner, the builder, and the utility purchasing the energy produced.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic_system

    In a sunny place like Arizona, you get an average of 240 watts of sunshine per square meter over the course of a 24 hour period. Throw in photovoltaic efficiency ranging from 10-20%, and you are only getting an average 24-48 watts out of a square meter of PV. A typical house might range from 110 to 300 square meters of living space, so the roof area would be about as much, unless it is a two story house, in which case you are talking about half. Taking a nice-sized 2000 square foot single story house, which is 185 square meters, you only get 44.4 kilowatts of total solar energy in sunny Arizona. If you have really efficient solar panels that can hit 20% (and I don't think those are very common), you are talking about only 8.8 kilowatts of daily output.

    A Nissan Leaf battery delivers 90 kilowatts of power.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    From my post above, 22.3*.25 = 5.575 watts per square foot

    1,000,000/5.575 = 179,372 square feet to produce 1,000,000 watts

    43,560 square feet in 1 acre

    179.372/43,560 = 4 acres

    My math with several assumptions roughly matches design’s 3 to 5 acres for a 1MW solar plant.

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    BTS I don't believe that will be done, I was just making a generous assumption to see what we could ideally do.

  • Razziel
    Razziel

    That 85% came from the Shockley-Queisser limit, with infinite layers of p-n junctions. Not realistic, just idealistic.

  • botchtowersociety
    botchtowersociety
    My math with several assumptions roughly matches design’s 3 to 5 acres for a 1MW solar plant.

    It works. You get about a megawatt per acre in total daily insolation if you average 240w/m2/day. @20% efficiency you get the output out of 5 acres if everything runs perfectly. The problem is, however, what to do when the sun doesn't shine. We don't have viable storage that I know of, so some sort of baseload generation is necessary for those times. The main consideration is EROEI, and cost. If we had a really good storage technology many of our problems would be solved.

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    Never trust BTS on ANY calculations. He is an ideologue with zero integrity.

    His posts must always be fact checked. Most often he is either being deceitful or outright lying.

    Keeping him honest is a full time job.

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