I need your advice to reach my daughters!

by Cirkeline 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    If she does not want to read the history from whiny apostates, she may be offended by you suggesting Crisis of Conscience, so be careful with how you introduce it. You could suggest she read the Proclaimers book. That really shook me up, learning about what a man made organisation it is. Although the book sugar coats its history, it is still quite accurate about failed dates, in-fighting etc. Then ask her, "do you think God would pick some random man - Russell - out of the blue with no ties to any other group, to start a new religion, and then expect people to join it in order to be saved?"

    Ask her about what determines a person's religion, and why she is a JW. I love this quote, which is the accurate answer:

    "What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak."
    George Santayana 'Life of Reason' - Volume 'Reason in Religion' p.5

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Absolutely - follow Ding's advice...

    His ideas are what going "undercover" are ALL about.

    I wouldn't mention "Crisis of Conscience" to her - not at this point.

    Wait until she voices SERIOUS doubts - if she does - and THEN gently suggest the book...

    Best results to you!!

  • DesirousOfChange
    DesirousOfChange

    Tomorrow I'll write her. I will ask her to go to library and borrow "Crises [of] conscience",

    Mentioning COC to most JWs will automatically cause them to see you already in the clutches of Satan. Speaking from personal experience, it takes a while before an active JDub is ready to sneak off into the dark corner and read such an "evil" apostate book. Until that time, you must tread lightly.

    Doc

  • Rydor
    Rydor

    DO NOT mention Crisis of Conscience or any other "apostate" literature to them!! It's too soon and you will most likely drive a huge wedge between you and your daughters. I know this from personal experience.

    I highly recommend you first read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steve Hassan. That'll give you a better understanding of the mind of an indoctrinated person. There's some good guidelines in that book that will greatly increase your odds of success.

  • zeb
    zeb

    and like so many 17 yo they know it all in the truth or out.

  • nugget
    nugget

    You can afford to take it slowly, since there is no Armageddon then time is on your side. Never give up hope and never give up, people change and what they once believed was true can change.

    I would always take whatever opportunity you can to reassure them of your unconditional love and support. Whatever they say and whatever they do they are being controlled by cult conditioning and are not behaving true to themselves. They may say things that hurt you but be aware that this isn't them and for a time they cannot help themselves.

    The sad situation in Australia shows that god does not take care of child abuse within the organisation in fact a good question would be why he allowed it to happen in the first place?

    The best thing to do is o educate yourself on the available literature such as captives of a concept, combatting cult mind control, coc and others. This will help you to understand the weaknesses in the witness arguments and help you to connect with your daughters.

    This may take time but there is plenty of it.

  • its_me!
    its_me!

    Treading lightly is good advice, I feel. As, nonbelievers, or "apostates", we are already trying to swim upstream. We are viewed by JWs as crazy, demon-possessed individuals. The stronger you come on, the more likely she will react by clinging on to the Org. even tighter. I know how hard it is to hold back, when you just want to shout all you know at the top of your lungs and shake them into reality, but for your daughters' sakes try to be calm, and give her little bits at a time. It is a tough thing to swallow all at once.

  • Cirkeline
    Cirkeline

    I hear yor message loud and clear, go sloooowly, be patient. Yes, thats the way I guess. Its hard though. I want them out, yesterday!

    Yes, DOC, I remember my own proces. It takes time to get ready to sneak off into the dark corner. The person that disturbed my mind enough to view JW from another perspective was good at asking questions, and focused on the lack of love and inhuman behavior among JW and their thinking on people outside. That really made me dare to think thru the thoughts and questions I had hidden deep down for so many years. I also remember the guilt and fear when I finally started to read "apostate" info. But once started, that was my point of no return, and my eyes got wide opened. So, yes, the best would be if she her self took the initiative to read "apostate" literature, when she is ready. My job must be to make her ready I guess.

    MASH - She lives 4 hours drive from me, so a bit difficult w fam.study, but a great idea. But ofcours studies over phone or e-mail have been heard of. I could use the idea. We briefly touched the 1914 issue on the phone. And I get the idea to suggest her to read the two articles in public version of WT, I think it was oct/nov-11, about the year 607 bc. Ding; - Lots to be Puzzeld, unsetteld and confused about there. I know there is a comment on these articles on here. I could ask her some questions to make her see how poorly valid these articles are. And from there....if 1914 is'nt right, how about all the doctrines and teachings that connects to it?????

    JWFact; - Love your website! Great questions with Russel and what determines ones religion. Unfortunately (or not) I threw all my JW literature, including WTT in the garbage when I left 2 years ago. I hated it. Now, when back (100% undercover), I regret it. Would be usefull now. Darn. Will try to get the proclaimers book. There has been a download link once, but its gone.

    Zid, DOC; - I have to make some damage control. I've allready mentioned COC to her, also telling her several persons been DF for having and reading it. She supprised me then by saying, "noone needs to know what we write or talk about mum". That was a comment that really gave me a flash of hope. Could she be ready? I am not sure, and will not jeopardize it. Maybe not mention the book in e-mail, for now.

    Rydor; - So sorry about your bad experience.... I hope it all went to the better? Yes, I have felt that wedge. When I left and my youngest shunned me 100%, I am sure my leaving just drove her deeper into the clawes of the GB. She got baptized when I was out, 15 yo. Doing alot of aux. pioneering. Had I known what I know today, I'd done many things differently. But its to late to think about that. And after being happily reunited, I can feel that wedge building up again. She feels uncomfortable, unsafe and confused that I who raised her in the love of Jehovah, now turn my back on him, by coming very seldom to the meetings, not attending in FS etc.... Thats how she sees it. She is kind of preparing to make it thru without mum... Devostating. And I know she loves me to death. Its her way to protect herself and her way of not getting hurt....so sad. I did read Steven Hassans book while out, to educate myself for my mission. Fantastic book. I have to read it again.

    Nugget; - Very encurraging. You are so right. Time IS on my side! I have to let that sink in...... I know, its their cult-minds, not them selves. I really feel I can reach Liv's natural self sometimes, but she often goes into cult-modus, ofcours. Well, she and lil sis are born in's. I lived a normal life for 22 years before I was trapped. I guess that made it easier for me to break free. Will probably take longer for my girls. But, time is on my side!.... What a relieving, and hopefull fact!

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Hi, Cirkeline!!

    Several people here have already made this suggestion, but I'm going to reinforce it...

    About the "bible" study - or biblical discussions over the phone, which might be more palatable to your daughters...

    In my readings on the subject, I ran across an interesting statement by a Christian website, to the effect that the best indicator that someone is going to leave the Jehovah's Witnesses eventually, is that they READ THE BIBLE BY ITSELF.

    Jehovah's Witnesses are spoon-fed their bibles; the Watchtower Society tends to use certain scriptures over and over again.

    Ironically, that was the mentality of Russell from the very beginning; he didn't think that average people had the "insight" to understand the bible by themselves - so HE was there, with his "vast" storehouse of biblical "knowledge" transmitted especially just to HIM from Jehovah's "throne" in Alcyon...

    I would suggest this:

    If you aren't doing so already, start reading your bible every day - and make NOTE of scriptures that puzzle you or specifically go against Watchtower policy.

    Then bring THOSE SCRIPTURES to your daughters' attention, and as suggested by SO many people above, use questions... "What does this mean? How does the Govening ody interpret this? Why did they interpret this scripture THIS way from 1930 until 1956, then interpreted it THIS way from 1956 until 1977, then went back to their first interpretation in 1980?"

    And so on...

    The more you bring actual biblical verses to their attention, and ask for explanations, the more research - or asking the elders - they will have to do....

    And eventually they'll run out of rope.

    Hope this helps... Zid

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Oh, and:

    "Zid, DOC; - I have to make some damage control. I've allready mentioned COC to her, also telling her several persons been DF for having and reading it. She supprised me then by saying, "noone needs to know what we write or talk about mum". That was a comment that really gave me a flash of hope. Could she be ready? ...."

    No, I don't think that incident indicated that she's "ready"; I think it indicated that she's willing to go against Watchtower Corporate policy to protect you....

    Which is a GOOD thing, by the way...

    Think of this process as similar to growing a beautiful rose garden...

    You plant the roses the first year. You mulch them [putting straw, moss, compost around the roots to help them survive the winter] and trim them back in the fall, check for bugs in the spring, wash them down with a very thin mixture of Dawn [tm] dishwashing liquid and water to remove the bugs in late spring and thru the summer if needed, then mulch them again and trim them in the fall again...

    If I recall correctly, one has to do this for two years before one begins to get a robust blooming season....

    And you can't "pull up the flowers to see how the roots are growing"...

    Just drop the doubts, ask THEM to answer your questions [and of course they'll try to direct you to the elders if you posit them as actual "QUESTIONS" of faith, so sneak those questions in a subtle manner], otherwise you'll find elders on your doorstep to "address your concerns"]...

    Yuk.

    Try to avoid that, if at all possible...

    Hope this helps, too...

    Zid

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