Christian Atheists, why did you throw the baby out with the bath water?

by Elsewhere 86 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  JRK

  My God is Wank Wank, and that is all he does.

  Throw him out, he stinks like the bathwater!

  JK
• 

  tec

  The culture hero (Jesus) that accomplishes a great action on which life hinges (crucifiction) was recognized by cultures all around the world thousands of years before the Christian culture hero made the scene. But I suppose they knew it was all coming, so they incorporated it earlier. Cuz this story is true, and they were drawing on truth. Weird that they were aware of this culture hero long before anyone else . . .

  Can't respond more than what I have without a specific e x ample.

  On a related point, I see 'issue' differently. (surprise) Leaving aside the particulars about a creator, I see that seeking and believing in a creator (s) has been around for as long as we have been around. Some think that is based on superstition, and nothing real. I think we have that need because there is something to fill that need that IS real. I don't think we could have a debate about something unreal outside of our five proven senses... unless something e x isted outside of those senses. Else how would it have been conceived by every culture in every place, in every time... since the dawn of man?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  NewChapter

  I KNOW! Conceived by every single culture---only this one is right. The others were pale imitations of the truth to come. The need was there, they sensed the truth, but until Yaweh, and more importantly Jesus, they just couldn't grasp it all. For thousands and thousands of years, humans were content with a mere shadow and promise, then along came Judaism and then Christianity and staightened it all out.
• 

  tec

  conceived by every single culture---only this one is right.

  Christ is the Truth I know... through his teachings, through his deeds, through his spirit. Much of what is written regarding christianity today is a pale imitation of Christ/Truth as well. Nor did worship start with the Jewish people. The history in the bible mentions other nations before Abraham that also worshiped El... who were not Jewish. (where Isra-EL came from) Who knows how far back (to the beginning) that goes and how many others knew of God but turned away from him? And then before that, and before that... and before that?

  You might think that Christ's life and teachings are a rehash, but I have not seen (or read) anything that is close to his life. Other than a general savior concept. Which concept could be past down and around because it contains an element of truth in it.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  NewChapter

  Well now that is just ethnocentric. "a general savior concept". That is so dismissive. All of these other culture heroes lack the complexity and power of yours, correct? Just a general, watery sort of idea. Something discussed around a campfire after a day of foraging. And of course these people didn't come up with their own theology, they were simply worshipping El, or perhaps rejecting hiim. Yeah--turned away from him. Because they were rebellious in some way, they no longer served the god that you have claimed is the true god, even though you say they didn't have all the details and were pretty free to make him up as they went along. Your certainty makes this new god the real one. That certainty maybe doesn't exist in other cultures and religions? Perhaps because they were grasping at shadows?

  Well perhaps there is some foraging band somewhere that knows about this new religion and have concluded that YOU are serving the same gods they are, but that your understanding has become adulterated as this god travelled further from it's source, but because there was so much truth in their god, some of that truth remained even though it had become rather corrupted. They believe, like you, that it has always been the same god everyone was seeking, but their version has been around much longer, and their people have been around much longer, and therefore their understanding is much purer. Perhaps that little band was even approached by that god thousands and thousands of years ago. Maybe THEY know more about this god than you do.

  And maybe they will find it quite easy to tell you all the things you got wrong. Because they know this god personally, they can pick through the garbage to give a purer story. Their version would be just as valid as your version, because according to you, this god did not leave a reliable guide to keep the waters clean, and it is only through a personal relationship that one can really know what parts to reject. Yet they believe the same thing. Through visions and rituals they have touched the spirit world, and you really can't argue the point because this god has left nothing authorative in its wake. And frankly, their guess is as good as yours, because they are surely just as intelligent and spiritual.

  This is one mecurial god.

  NC
• 

  tec

  All of these other culture heroes lack the complexity and power of yours, correct? Just a general, watery sort of idea.

  You are giving me general, watery information. How can I respond otherwise? I don't know who these other culture heroes are, nor the details and purpose of their lives.

  But Christ is not limited to culture or ethnicity. He came through one... but he came for all. It may seem inconceivable to you and others at how it played out; but that is just the way it played out according to circumstance, purpose and faith. I mean, I'm not Jewish or Israel as far as I know. So what should a Jewish or Israel savior have to do with me? Because Christ came for all of mankind; regardless of what culture he happened to come through. He came first to those who were his (by faith, which led to a promise), and then to everyone.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  NewChapter

  I supppose I could choose individual culture heroes---explain the complex mythology around them---but the point was that you did not hesitate to suggest that these people were worshipping only in partial truth, or that they had left this true god---without having any details. Yet you are uncomfortable conceding that their beliefs and heroes are quite complex with many powerful lessons and build a great deal of hope in their believers. I find this is typical of most religions. They are willing to assume the negative points--the lack of enlightenment---but are unwilling to concede the positives without more details. In other words, they first assume the less. Then AFTER learning more about a religion, they perhaps concede that there is more to it than they had first thought. It is interesting. Which only proves my point more fullly---EVERY culture believes their god is superior (or their understanding of the same god) naturally, that is what belief is all about. EVERY culture believes that others are somehow not as enlightened. EVERY culture follows a very similar pattern in beliefs, if not the beliefs themselves. And they think they have stumbled onto the purest truth.

  Just be content to know that Christianity does not encompass the majority, and you can be sure, that other belief systems are just as complex, nuanced, and sincere as yours. You don't need to assume that any group anywhere is simple or that their understanding of the world and religion is simple. All humans are complicated, and they are all capable of creating culture heroes that are not watery or vague. And they think you are wrong. And their experience is much like yours--their certainty that they have been specially guided to a purer truth. They know their culture heroes as well as you know yours. And certainly you are a type of atheist in their eyes. They feel a bit saddened that you can't see their truths, and that you have not been set free.

  NC
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  NewChapter

  Which is all to say that your explanation as to why people benefitted from your god without really knowing your god can be used by anyone.

  I remember when I was first studying with JW's, I had a born-again customer. When she found out I was studying, she literally put her hand over her heart in grief. It was quite dramatic. I told her that my life had really benefitted from what I was learning. Which was true. There were many principals in the bible that were quite helpful---as there is in many human writings. It forced me to consider my actions before acting, which was a concept that was lost to me previously. It taught me to take more control and responsiblity. This is not unique to the bible, but at the time, I thought it was. So my own personal experience somehow proved I was on the right track, right? She didn't hesitate. She said of course my life had improved, because I was applying bible principals, but that didn't mean I knew god. Essentially the same argument you are using. People benefitted from your god without understanding it.

  Hindus believe we are all heading in the same direction. So even if we don't understand their millions of gods, we are benefitting. Your argument is universal, and no more powerful because you think your understanding is closer to true. Everyone thinks that. Your certainty, your internal feelings, your faith prove nothing. Because many people have that. And they feel it as strongly as you do, and their experience is no less valid than yours, and therefore, their gods are no less valid than yours. And for most of them, they aren't 'rejecting' your god so much as accepting another god.

  To say that they are rejecting your god is like saying a foraging band rejects horticulture. Nonsense. They aren't actively rejecting anything.

  NC
• 

  N.drew

  Christians are atheists if they believe they belong to Christ but won't listen to Christ to obey Christ for the Kingdom of God.

  I believe the Bible is a shadow of the heavenly things. When you all who read the bible, did you notice that loyalty was very rare? That is the difference between real Christianity and the atheistic kind.

  And it is the difference between a form of worship and true worship. So some of you who don't even know it, are Nebuchadnezzar's furnace. Haha! ;). Thanks for the heat guys.

  I looked up a scripture for NewChapter and found another surprise! Now cofty, how did I know the Greek words in the passage were rare before I looked at them in my free and easy Bible aids, Biblos? Eh? Two words were found only there in that one scripture. Society translated it for propaganda, I am not surprised.

  12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13 “For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 “And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15 “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
• 

  whereami

  People who "just know" that gods exist are like Ms J., a woman who just knows that George Clooney really loves only her. She is unable to say how she knows, beyond her claim that Clooney communicates with her by visions which she alone experiences. No invocation of logic or appeal to objectivity can sway the certainty of her "knowledge."

  There are two arguments against the existence of gods that seem convincing to me. The first is an extension of Laplace's Retort. He famously answered Napoleon's question about the absence of gods from his work by saying "Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothese-la." (I had no need for that hypothesis.) In fact, today, in all the vast body of scientific, technical, engineering, and mathematical work which comprises our knowledge of the world, there is no need whatsoever to appeal to gods, and indeed, no such appeal occurs. As far as anybody can tell, gods are the very opposite of necessary.

  Another powerful argument against the existence of gods is the utter absence of any unequivocal, empirical evidence for their existence. Such evidence exists for everything from apples to zebras, from cosmic background radiation to the Higgs boson, but not for gods. Why not?

  Maybe because gods are like unicorns and leprechauns?