Pre-emptive shunning - a growing reality

by cedars 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • caliber
    caliber

    The only "official marking "I know about is done from the platform. No names are mentioned, but the context is made clear so that everyone who knows the so called"sinner" well enough gets the message no name(s) are mentioned, but the "objectionable" behavior is zeroed in on sufficiently so that you (in cong) would know who to apply it to if you saw such. It is still applied directly to only certain individuals therefore

    Pre-emptive shunning is certainly not offical nor applied directly by the congregation body

    I don't think that inactivity without so called "wrong conduct" could be considered a marking unless

    a person was speaking out in some way

  • myusername
    myusername

    When I left in my late teens I dropped my old JW friends and never looked back. They always had the implicit attitude that they would be the ones to decide if they would know me if I ever wasn't a JW. (I wasn't baptized.) What makes them think it's only their choice? It's my personal opinion that it's bad for psychological health to be around that environment in any way.

  • jws
    jws

    You do realise that we are allowed to make up our own terms for things now that we are beyond the control of the Society?!

    Of course we are, but if you intend to survey JWs, you use their lingo. You don't refer to their Kingdom Hall as a Church, you don't refer to their elders as their pastors, etc. Not saying you did. But pre-emptive shunning seems like marking. For whatever reason, they felt a person needed to be marked/avoided.

    And when I saw the term "pre-emptive shunning", I wasn't quite sure what you meant. And as you described it as an "inactive person", I realize I did NOT get your meaning and probably shouldn't have answered or answered differently. Maybe instead of making up a term that people may or may not understand, just put out there what you just said.

    Did you experience shunning as an inactive person, even before you have been disciplined for any wrongdoing in the congregation?

    Maybe the question about the JC also refers to after becoming inactive and/or in regards to doctrinal beliefs. If so, I answered that one wrong as well because no such clarifications were made in the question. My JC happened when I was a believing JW, was not DF'ed, and was still a believing JW afterwards. It had nothing to do with disagreements over doctrine/policy. If that question is aimed to show the type of person I might be, it has validity as-is. If it is aimed at determining whether I was harassed as I was leaving, it needs some tuning.

  • cedars
    cedars

    Thanks jws, but as I mentioned, the survey question seems to be working fine because 76 voters out of 79 total voters in the category have answered the question. JWs may be used to certain expressions and phrases, but they still have brains and can understand and relate to clearly worded phrases. I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this?

    By the way, I answered your question on the other thread about the validity of the Survey. Were you planning on getting back to me on that any time soon?

    Cedars

  • Juan Viejo2
    Juan Viejo2

    Jesus made it very clear what his feelings were on pre-emptive judging:

    Matthew 7

    1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

    3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

    What the Watchtower is promoting is exactly the opposite to Jesus' command. And then to add shunning to this act of judgement? That goes far beyond anything that you could possibly call "Christian love."

    I hate to think that the religion that I grew up in, my faith for most of my youth, has completely gone from one that not only taught us to love each other and to show forgiveness, to one that teaches that everything and everyone is suspect. I can't imagine going into a Kingdom Hall and mentally dividing the brothers and sisters up as "strong in the faith" or "weak." I don't want to look at a young brother with a neatly trimmed mustache and label him as "spiritually weak." I don't want to imagine a sister pregnant with her sixth child as being "sexually promiscuous." If that is the case, then I should have the right to judge certain elders as "haughty" and "seeking fame," and their wives as "gossips." While I might believe those things in my heart, I must not judge those people or shun them as evildoers just because I hold those opinions.

    How do you judge a person who is "spiritually weak"? Can you compare someone who turns in one hour a month of honest door-to-door preaching to an elder who NEVER knocks on a door but turns in 20 hours a month counting family study night, his public talks, and elder meetings? Who among us can judge? Should I avoid the elderly sister with only one hour a month? Or should I shun the "pioneer" who turns in 70 hours a month spent mostly driving around or sitting in coffee shops?

    Shunning is an evil thing. Those who practice it and those who promote it are evil. Both are acting in direct opposition to Jesus' own command quoted above.

    JV

  • jws
    jws

    Just because survey participants answered your question doesn't mean it's working "fine" and that everybody understands what you mean. And that's a problem.

    You asked if I was ever pre-emptively shunned. Yes, I was and that is how I answered the question. It was well before I became inactive and faded. So Yes, is the appropriate answer. Underneath the surface, as you understand it, you have this "when you became inactive" clause attatched to the question. When you present your results, you will be portraying all of the yes answers as if they were shunned for fading, when that may not be the case.

    Was the question about the Judicial committee also with the understanding that it was due to becoming inactive and/or differences in beliefs?

    I did not answer your post on the other thread as there didn't seem to be much to say without arguing, but since you seem to be in that mood...

    You believe this survey is attracting real JWs. 143 to be exact from last year's survey. I believe those aren't real JWs. I believe that to even be discovering and answering your survey says something about the people responding which skews the results. As it is, 143 (1 in 53,560) people hardly represent the 7.7 million JWs claimed on the annual report. And to make any sort of projection based on what actual JWs in an average congregation are feeling seems like it would be vastly inaccurate. I know it was only a few months and you hope for more next year. Yet you still have the "weak ones" factor, ex-JWs, disfellowshipped ones, and those who would even go to your site. It's like surveying hospitals, hospices, and nursing home patients about health issues and drawing the conclusion most people in the country are seriously ill.

    I do think surveys are fun and it's great to see what people are thinking. But you've got to understand your demographics. You're trying to understand what JWs are thinking? Is the survey something most JWs would feel comfortable in participating in? Would they answer truthfully? As your site states, some people thought it was the JWs and they'd be tracked back for answering. And if I were a loyal JW, it would look like your site is just trying to back up apostates and make the JWs look bad for past mistakes. I might not even believe some of the claims (and some of those are vague).

    There are just too many variables, IMO, for this survey to draw any accurate conclusions, except how ex-JWs feel.

    But, you seem to think what you're doing is perfect and nobody can suggest you might have done things better. So go do what you're doing and ponder and publish your results. And good luck trying to present any of this to anybody of authority within the JW organization in hopes of reform.

    And even your letter in the survey... You think most of the apostacy issues would go away and most of us would leave these sites with no more complaints if just they'd let up on the shunning and maybe change a belief and policy or two? That says a lot about what you know about this community. As if we're all just closet JWs and only a few minor tweaks would bring us back. Even the Governing Body isn't that deluded.

    The JWs are a false religion and it is a waste of time trying to reform them. Even if they fix the issues you've hit on, they're still a false religion. You need to come to terms with that.

    But if you want to joust this windmill, go ahead.

  • cedars
    cedars

    jws - thanks for voicing your concern on the "pre-emptive shunning" question. So far, unsurpisingly, you are the only one to have a problem with it. However, if more people complain, then I will know that it needs to be re-phrased for next year's survey. However, to me it appears that you are simply arguing over semantics.

    As far as the legitimacy of the survey is concerned, you raised your concerns on my "results" thread without having bothered to thoroughly read the part of the results PDF in which those concerns are addressed. I can't help but be astonished that you have arbitrarily branded 143 voters as "not real JWs" simply because they have been brave enough to take accountability for their own consciences and make their voices heard on our survey.

    You say:

    to make any sort of projection based on what actual JWs in an average congregation are feeling seems like it would be vastly inaccurate.

    If you can show me a single page of my results PDF where I offer a "projection" of the true number of disgruntled JWs, then I would be very interested to see this. As I recall, I offered no such projection, and the only conclusion drawn from the survey is that an unknown amount of dissent exists within the JW faith.

    There are just too many variables, IMO, for this survey to draw any accurate conclusions, except how ex-JWs feel.
    But, you seem to think what you're doing is perfect and nobody can suggest you might have done things better. So go do what you're doing and ponder and publish your results. And good luck trying to present any of this to anybody of authority within the JW organization in hopes of reform.

    Well this is pretty patronizing, if I may say. You do realize we're on the same side? Or at least I assume we are? I never said that the survey is perfect, and again, if you actually refer to the results PDF, I devote an entire section to "shortcomings of the survey". Have you read that part?

    As far as not welcoming feedback is concerned, you will notice that any threads I have posted on the survey have openly invited feedback, and those who have suggested feedback have been thanked and their suggestions taken under consideration.

    You seem to be a very bitter individual, and I'm not sure you're directing your frustrations in a particularly productive direction.

    Cedars

  • Nice_Dream
    Nice_Dream

    My husband experiences more shunning now that he has facial scruff. JWs see him and look shocked and quickly turn away or ignore him. One sister was telling everyone he looks like a Muslim, which I thought was a weird thing to say. And our once close friends shun us even though we hung out with them when they weren't going to meetings.

    It's sad to see the fear in these people's eyes. We're still the same people, but now we're dangerous. I don't blame them though, I used to be afraid of apostates and fringers too.

  • zeb
    zeb

    There was a time when we were told via 'Service meeting' and on other occasions that not everyone in the cong was a good associate.

    'Divide and conquer', i thought.

    But when people are denied but the most basic education it is easy to do this.

    As for those who are more 'active' than others; is it to get their 'hours' in?

    I recall a family who were considered elite. Doing long country runs witnessing was the norm. They all booked 'hours' the five of them but in all likelihood only witnessed to one or two housholds in each run but the 'hours' looked impressive.

    If someone 'shuns' you because you dont meet the/their 'standards' its their loss.

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    Jehovahs witnesses are all about keeping up appearances.

    and if you aint, you're marked. JWs love marking people, just love it. Gossip ridden maggot bags they are.

    Oz

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