"Well" sez grandad taking off his jacket, "get down off your bloody high horse , and I'll fookin' fight yer for it !"
Grandad wanted military parity before the fight began :-)
Las Malvinas AKA The Falkland Islands - why the argy-bargy?
by cedars 319 Replies latest members politics
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besty
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Chariklo
Some light relief on the subject!
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Hillary
I remember my dad saying back when this was going on that he thought this was going to trigger the GT and the big A.
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Las Malvinas son Argentinas
Yes, cofty, a diplomatic solution (at least for the British) is not likely so soon after Galtieri’s foolish adventure. Only a die-hard fascist will not cringe when hearing the name of that man today. We are indeed stuck with his legacy like the Germans with Hitler, Italians with Mussolini, and unfairly so in my view. I have travelled to the Malvinas as a student representative, and to the UK on other business. Both the islanders and the British are genuinely polite people, with warm hospitality and will discuss things civilly with you. However, the Malvineros are particularly stubborn when it comes to sovereignty. They refuse anything to do with Argentina, and a lot has to do with the war. At Rio Gallegos where the Malvinas flight stops from Chile, the officials refuse to stamp passports since they view it as an internal Argentine flight. There has been some talk of prohibiting the flight since it goes through Argentine airspace. It would be a mistake because to do so would only harden opinions of the islanders.
What is frustrating for Argentines is the prevailing British attitude. I have spoken to many, and most will cite the hard feelings of the war and the 255 deaths. That is understandable. It seems to me though that this is the main blocking point, and the issue of who controls the Malvinas is of minor importance. In other words, take out the war and the resulting deaths, and most would not care either way. So we’re down to the feelings of 3000 people on the Malvinas. After the decolonisation period and MacMillan’s “Wind of Change” speech, Argentina rightfully felt that the Malvinas would eventually be included in this. The British, Dutch, Belgian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese overseas empires were in full retreat. I read a British written book on the war which stated that the UK government intended on giving the Malvinas back after Lord Shackelton’s report which gave a grim outlook on the islands’ future and recommended cooperation with Argentina. They even sent Foreign Office high officials down to talk the islanders into it. Argentina built the airport in Stanley and started a weekly shuttle.
Pre-1982, the British Malvinas were in decline. The population was low and suffered from emigration. Wool was the main product, and the islands themselves were unsustainable economically. It might have been different if the islands had a thriving British population at the time, but that wasn’t the case. This fed into the Argentine perception that the islands were practically devoid of population and a re-incorporation into Argentina would have been a painless and inevitable step.
Of course Galtieri stepped in and fucked it up. (Sorry for the harsh words, but that’s what he did). The Malvinas rebounded and suddenly had a reason to justify their existence in the British Empire. The Mt. Pleasant base was built, a road network was extended and improved, while Stanley (You have me on that one, I shouldn’t call it Puerto Argentino since it was founded by the British) has grown into a small capital and tourist hub. Fishing licences were sold and now oil is being explored. This all boils down to an issue of poor timing. Of all Prime Ministers to invade on, we had to pick Thatcher. If Argentina invaded during or right after the Suez crisis in the 1950’s, the Malvinas would be flying our flag and all we would have gotten would be a few stern diplomatic admonishments.
I do appreciate you guys not associating the Argentine people with Galtieri and the dictatorship. We certainly don’t assume you are a Thatcherite because you support your government’s Malvinas policy. I only wish this could have been decided with pens and briefcases and not guns. Now we are reduced to claiming our rights to the Malvinas, but only having the support of the likes of Morales, Castro, Chavez, Ahmadinejad, Sean Penn, Roger Waters, and to a smaller extent, Clinton and Obama! There are many different disputes of sovereignty today, and we have heard a few examples. However, the Malvinas are a unique dispute in that there were no native inhabitants, and one colony flushed out an original colony. 1833 is always big on our minds. An Argentine governor and settler population were expelled by Britain, and we still believe in our rights to what was and is ours. I do not wish to upset anyone, and I have fond memories and opinions of British people and Malvineros. Thank you for allowing me to speak freely.
Emilie
Las Malvinas son Argentinas!
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cofty
I appreciate your honest and considered thoughts Emilie. Its really intersting to hear the Argentinian perspective firsthand.
Cofty
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aligot ripounsous
Sorry, I have to step in and put things right : Las malvinas are in fact Les Malouines, after Saint Malo, so they are Breton ;-)
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Chariklo
Emilie, I do understand your strong feelings that the islands are Argentinian.
Nevertheless, I think you underestimate British feeling.
What is frustrating for Argentines is the prevailing British attitude. I have spoken to many, and most will cite the hard feelings of the war and the 255 deaths. That is understandable. It seems to me though that this is the main blocking point, and the issue of who controls the Malvinas is of minor importance. In other words, take out the war and the resulting deaths, and most would not care either way. So we’re down to the feelings of 3000 people on the Malvinas.
I am no advocate of Maggie Thatcher, and her politics are certainly very far from my own, but no matter what government is in power I think you'll find that the majority of British people do feel strongly about the Britishness of the Falklands. Margaret Thatcher spoke very much for the nation when she declared her intention to defend the islands and people, in fact the sovereignty of the Crown.
The Falkland Islands, while a very long way from the UK, are not as isolated as might seem. They're not so far from South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands.
So, again, while I do understand your own strong feelings and those of your fellow countrymen, history speaks otherwise. It wouldn't be in your interests to assume that the Britiish would give them up easily, nor that it is just a government that you're dealing with. It isn't. In this instance, the people feel strong affinity with the Falkland Islands and the Falklanders.
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Las Malvinas son Argentinas
aligot ripounsous – We paid you for the Malvinas already! Didn’t you get the check from Spain, our daddy?
Chariklo – One of our illustrious writers wrote a fictional short story on the Malvinas. In it, a character of his had the best quote that can probably sum up this entire conflict in one sentence. I will share it with you now:
[Gesturing towards the Malvinas landscape] You’d have to be English to want this.
Maybe we’re on to something that few have ventured before. Perhaps this has much to do with the Argentine and British national character? Throughout history, the British have been very proper and polite almost to an annoying level. I am a big fan of Downton Abbey, and even though it’s a period piece, I think it defines the British character to an extent. Argentina used its military to evict a handful of British soldiers, the Governor, and island administrators. We tore down your flag and replaced it with our own. To the British, this was downright rude and improper, and to do nothing would be in essence to condone this poor behaviour. Thus, a task force was sent, not so much so to recapture the ‘Falklands’ (Oi I must be in a good mood to say it that way, but I still thought to include the quotation marks!) but to right a certain wrong. I do not deny that you feel some sort of camaraderie with the islanders due to your shared heritage, but I sincerely doubt it was done chiefly for this reason. We broke international laws and conventions, and the UK was in a unique position to enforce it.
I suppose in Argentina we think more simply than that. Our position can be stated in these words: In 1833, you took what was ours and forced us out. We want it back. It’s ours. An unpopular and unelected dictator and his regime forcibly invaded and took it back in 1982. It failed miserably, and now the British are even more firmly entrenched in the Malvinas. We still want it back.
So now we are stuck at this stalemate. What has changed in recent times are the positions of other countries. We have the Latin American and Spanish support, while you have the EU. China supports us because it wants Taiwan back. The Palestinians and Arabs support us because they want Palestine back. Meanwhile, the USA has reverted to a position of neutrality and encourages discussion of sovereignty. The chessboard pieces are moving, and the positions harden. But I think we all can agree on the futility of war. That in itself has much to recommend the progress of humanity in that aspect.
Emilie
Las Malvinas son Argentinas!
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besty
We want it back. It’s ours.
by force or by diplomacy? suggestions please,
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Qcmbr
We have HMS Dauntless - you don't get to invade again. We will protect our people against all corrupt political systems that seek to steal their identity and resources from them. Laughably you have also reduced the likelihood of sharing in any potential oil bonanza by acting like spoilt brats and closing ports and engaging in bullying tactics. Well done , oil refineries will now likely be built somewhere less likely to steal the investment by forced nationalisation and who aren't susceptible to weak administrations who see international law as an inconvenience. You have no claim on those Islands and have made no effort to win over the British people who live there.
Argentina needs to grow up and recognise that proximity and a brief historical point in time do not confer ownership of territory. When you invaded you categorically lost the political claim as well as being humiliated militarily.
Go play dictatorships elsewhere.