Did Jesus sacrifice really mean anything?

by highdose 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  SweetBabyCheezits

  SBC: I'm confused about your movie reference. Girl A - the one who got them into trouble - is she supposed to be analagous to Jesus or A&E?

  Tammy: I wasn't trying to compare them at all.

  Except here you said....

  Tammy: In the above case, if girl a was innocent and wanted to sacrifice herself for girl b (guilty), then becasue of her courage and her love, she deserved to have her request honored.

  ....followed by this....

  Tammy: In that case, if Christ wanted us to be forgiven, then on the basis of His sacrifice and His love, He deserves to have his request honored.

  .... which seems like you're suggesting Jesus is analagous to Girl A.

  Tammy: It all depends on whether or not you are looking at what reward the innocent deserves... or... what punishment the guilty deserves. Takes a minute to wrap your head around.

  You know, you're absolutely right. Now that I've taken a while to really wrap my head around that idea, I withdraw my argument. In fact, I'm gonna start a foundation where those on their deathbeds can volunteer to die with honor by taking the place of a death row inmate of their choice. What justice system wouldn't see that as fair and proper?? After all, as a matter of principle, the innocent person would "deserve to have her request granted (take the guilt onto herself) because of the courage in her sacrifice." Just think of all the lives that will be saved!
• 

  undercover

  I only skimmed the three pages, so if someone mentioned this already, I apologize for repeating.

  Going back to the original question, "Did Jesus sacrifice really mean anything?"

  As far as the WTS goes, Jesus sacrifice was a ransom paid for Adamic sin. Adam sinned, cast us all to imperfection. Jesus came, died as a perfect human to pay for what Adam lost.

  The problem with that?

  For Jesus sacrifice to really mean anything means that you have to suspend disbelief and accept that a talking snake convinced the first woman to eat bad fruit, who then convinced the first man to eat of said fruit...just over 6,000 years ago.

  If however, you allow logic to trump fairy tale stories, then Jesus sacrifice cannot mean anything, because there was nothing to ransom. Even if Jesus were a real person who died at the insistence of the Jewish rulers of that day, it was a martyrdom, not a sacrifice that actually saved anyone or paid for anything.
• 

  tec

  I wasn't comparing them, SBC. I was just trying to open up another view; consider the possibility of something else... sometimes the truth lies between two e x tremes. The world is a lot bigger then our e x periences of it, and our culture. Its not easy to consider such a foreign concept; you have to step back a bit from the things you believe are right. But aren't you the one who started that confirmation bias thread?

  Anyway, in the process of explaining in that second post, I saw a comparison and commented on it.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  N.drew

  Think that if Jesus responded to the END of the sin that entered the world, then it means he saved the world from death. Why then does the good news sound personal? It is because if the world is not saved one can not then conclude that the individual will not be saved. The message is for the person and the world.

  You are smug atheists but at the same time you say that there will be an extinction. "Jesus" Messiah, Christ, son of man, son of God is for NO EXTINCTION. No extinction ever for as long as God is pleased to continue His "will be done".
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  diana netherton

  I think the real question here is do you believe in the Bible and Jesus...obviously, we

  have a mix of believers, non-believers and on the fencers. I am actually a non-believer.

  I don't put it down to being raised as a JW, just logic and what I personally feel in my

  heart...however, I respect the views of others who choose to believe. It takes a whole

  lot more faith than I think I'll ever have. But I do think that it is imperative that we all

  continue to respect each other's views. It is interesting to read everyones' posts...
• 

  diana netherton

  I think the real question here is do you believe in the Bible and Jesus...obviously, we

  have a mix of believers, non-believers and on the fencers. I am actually a non-believer.

  I don't put it down to being raised as a JW, just logic and what I personally feel in my

  heart...however, I respect the views of others who choose to believe. It takes a whole

  lot more faith than I think I'll ever have. But I do think that it is imperative that we all

  continue to respect each other's views. It is interesting to read everyones' posts...
• 

  SweetBabyCheezits

  Tammy: I wasn't comparing them, SBC. I was just trying to open up another view; consider the possibility of something else... sometimes the truth lies between two extremes.

  Tammy, I know I get plenty of things dead wrong, but with all due respect, you have this innate ability to build an argument on legs of rickety logic and then, when someone points out the fallacy, suggest the idea should stand on it's own merit, completely ignoring the void that exists where the rickety legs once stood. And I hate to say that because you seem to be such a genuine poster with the best intentions.

  Simply put: I disagree that true justice would permit an innocent volunteer to stand in place of a guilty felon, regardless of how noble or courageous the request may be.

  Tammy: The world is a lot bigger then our experiences of it, and our culture. Its not easy to consider such a foreign concept; you have to step back a bit from the things you believe are right. But aren't you the one who started that confirmation bias thread?

  That's right. That's why I ran my cherished beliefs and hopes (everlasting paradise) through the same meat grinder that I ran others' beliefs. That's why I got out of a cult, despite the fear - and reality - I'd lose my friends and family. That's also why I now welcome friends who are gay and I support equal rights, despite previously being homophobic due to strong prejudices from upbringing and living in the south. That's why I'm reading a book on sociocentrism and questioning my old views, even when it's something I really enjoy, like eating a nice juicy steak or chicken breast. (I'm still debating that one.)

  To me, these are tangible results of using some critical thinking to suppress my own biases, though not to a degree I would like. Does that mean it's easy sailing for me now? No, since it's part of our nature, I know I'll always struggle with bias. But as long as I have the memory of my family disowning me because they failed to use critical thinking, I'll have the motivation to keep fighting bias.

  Please refresh my memory, Tammy - were you ever a JW?
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  journey-on

  Yes...Jesus' sacrifice meant something. Look at it as Spiritual Science, Cosmic Law, Cosmic Physics...whatever.

  Mankind had lost the resonance with the Divine because of Free Will choices. We had almost reached the tipping point....the point of no return. Darkness is the absence of Light, and humanity was coming very close to total darkness, and needed someone to bring Light back into the world. But, there was no man qualified.

  Out of love for mankind, a very special man was born, trained, and annointed with the Divine Spark of Christ consciousness to reset, if you will, the spiritual frequencies of love...not just love of yourself and yours, but love for one's neighbor, and indeed, for one's own enemies. The ultimate act of Love is to lay down your own Life for another. THAT is a mighty spiritual vibration. Jesus' teachings, his death, and his taking on the divine body of Christ opened the Way back to the resonance that connects humanity to God. Faith makes that connection stronger.

  Even today, over 2,000 later, the name Jesus (Y'eshua) is synonomous with Love.
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  bioflex

  Jesus' sacrifice was for but one purpose, that we might have life and have it more abundantly, that is the promise of eternal life. The wages of sin is death. Sin seperates us from God, its like a huge gap between us, and that is why the death of Christ is necessary to reconcile us with God. Jesus says no one comes to the father except by me. Now the fact that Christ died and rose gives us the assurance of living again if we die.
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  N.drew

  Bioflex you are daring! I like it.