by highdose 83 Replies latest watchtower bible
Cofty? Are you there cofty? This next piece of work is way way stupider than what Tammy said! Now son, either come forward and admit I am right, or (please) go tell Tammy an apology. Thank you.
The only difference between the two eras has been the sheer number of wars fought in the name of god and jesus.
I'm sorry! I can not find the post. Maybe it was Q who said the worst bit of logic he'd ever seen.
I too have often pondered that...never seemed much like a sacrafice to me either.
One, he knew exactly what was going to happen, and two, if you believe the whole
thing anyway, he knew he would be going back to the cushy life he had before he
took a 33-year planet Earth fishing holiday.
Then of course there is the whole sin argument as well...since Jesus supposedly
died for our sins, then perhaps we ought to be a bit more sinful. Wouldn't want
the whole trip to be wasted.
if indeed the suffering was down to the supposed knowledge that people were not going to be benifited by the sacrifice. Because of not learning the lessons from it. ( an arugement drowned out by the huge number of Christain worshippers in the world today and in the past)
Then... surely what was the point??? Sacrificing himself for a people who would never take any lesson from it at all? Who would therefore never benefit from it. That makes the situation even worse. It means that now not only was the sacrifice not worth much but also it was pointless and benefited hardly anyone.
Sorry but your arguement does not hold water...
@Sacrificing himself for a people who would never take any lesson from it at all? highdose
Prove it.
Everyone learns their lesson, whether they know it or not.
A few learn the intended lesson. It is a good lesson.
Diana: good point! Theres also the moot point JW doctrine which on the one hand says that jesus died for all our sins and that this was because of undeserved kindness.... but then says that we need to prove ourselves in order to be included in that sacrifices blessings. So where really is the undeserved kindness in that??
N.Drew you are the one who said that he suffered because his sacrifice wouldn't cause people to listen a learn from it!....
i am the one saying thats not correct!
In case your theological model proves true that there was a blameless man who died but only for three days and was resurrected to God's right hand to lead everyone who believes back to God so that they can live the real life and very few will be led. You think that is "cushy"?
And then an institution is created in your honor to twist your words, confuse even the smartest people and give indisputable evidence that God really doesn't care.
That's what you call "cushy"? Who are you?
The thread begs the question; Why when believers say something stupid you thinking people demand that it should never happen again? But when troll type posters post something stupid, you let them go scott free? Why?
Please, it is not like it doesn't happen all the time.
Am I being impatient?
Its a good point. The biblical answer is that Jeus death was about vicarious punishment. The key word is propitiation.
All the WT stuff about a life for a life is nonsense.
The early christians clearly understood Jesus' death to have been the fulfillment of all the blood sacrifices of the OT.
"Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed." - 1 Cor 5:7
Paul's discussion of justification in Romans is very clear.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. - Romans 3:21-26
The phrase in bold actually says that "god set forth (pro-te'-tha-me) Christ to be a propitiation (he-lä-sta'-re-on) through faith in his blood."
It was faith in Jesus' bloody sacrifice as a fulfillment of the Atonement day ritual that leads to righteousness. It was on that day that the High Priest confessed the sins of the nation over the head of a goat and then cut its throat and offered its blood in the Most Holy. A second goad, the goat for Azazel or scapegoat, was chased off into the wilderness. The shedding of Jesus' blood was an essential requirement for the forgiveness of sin.
Now lets take a closer look at the two Greek words I have highlighted above.
According to Strong's lexicon pro-te'-tha-me means "to set forth to be looked at, to expose to view; to expose to public view; of the bodies of the dead"
It was common practice in the ancient world to leave the bodies of executed criminals exposed to public view as a warning to others. Paul uses precisely this imagery in describing what god did to Jesus. It was not the Romans or the Jews who made a public spectacle of Jesus' broken and bloody body it was god himself.
Further, according to Paul, the purpose of this gruesome scene is to act as a propitiation - he-lä-sta'-re-on. Again according to Strong this word was used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory.
In summary the picture that Paul presents is that of the wrath of an angry god appeased by the sight of Jesus bloody body hung on the cross.
Some other texts that fill out the picture - I will let you join the dots.
"Jesus put sins away through the sacrifice of himself...the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many" - Heb.9:26,28
"Christ died once for all time concerning sins a righteous person for unrighteous ones that he might lead you to God." - 1 Pet.3:18
"He committed no sin nor was deception found in his mouth...He himself bore our sin in his own body upon the stake that we may be done with sins and live to righteousness...And by his stripes you were healed." - 1 Pet. 2:22,24
"As substitutes for Christ we beg become reconciled to God. The one who did not know sin he made to be sin for us that we might become God's righteousness by means of him." - 2 Cor.5:20,21
"He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life. He that disobeys the Son will not see life but the wrath of God remains on him." - Jhn.3:36
"It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins...Yes among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of the flesh doing the things willed by the flesh and we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest." - Eph.2:1,3
"Indeed you who were once alienated and enemies because your minds were on works that were wicked, he has now again reconciled by means of that ones fleshly body through his death." - Col.1:21,22
Sermon over.
A picture paints a thousand words so here are two pictures that explain Jesus' death more simply.
