Looking for advice/thoughts/opinions RE Celebrating Xmas

by stuckinlimbo 34 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Bella15, WOW! Such a downer for this thread. I get your point and have the same dilema, but celebrate "Secular" Christmas because it's the time of year my totally non-religious (Never JW) relatives on my Dad's side decide to exchange gifts and do lights and tinsel and egg nog and the like.

    I don't think ..limbo's point has anything to do with atheism in the dilema, just JW stuff and children.

    I can philosophically agree that it is a concern, but I am with ...limbo to not deprive children.

    Edited to add, your opening was not a downer at all. Good input.

  • stuckinlimbo
    stuckinlimbo

    OTWO - My brother lives far away and may not always be around at Xmas time, we could work around that. I live out of town so even my parents don't come here for sometimes weeks. I guess the approach you suggest could work in the short term, maybe we'll just have to work it out year by year.

    Bella - I have seen a counsellor, the type that finds you really interesting but doesn't actually help you that much lol! Funnily enough, his sister in law was in the process of becoming a JW, and I gained a lot personally by providing him with the tools for him and his wife to help get her out, but I digress. I don't know if I'd call my problems PSTD, I certainly have issues, but the main issue I have is that I feel my family are insane and following an insane cult. I have spent the first 20 odd years of my life reading the bible and struggled with the idea god was so cruel and such a mysogynist. When I left and allowed myself to read evidence to the contrary, my instincts were validated. Not believing in a God is logical to me. It doesn't provide all the answers, and I understand being agnostic, but I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God, not because I'm on the rebound. I've felt a lot more at peace over the last five years, and I don't have to keep my legs together at night anymore incase I get raped by demonz lol.... off on a tangent again I am.

    I like Christmas because the family get together and puts up pretty decorations and eats nice food and has a good time together. We did this as JWs when I was younger, but as my brothers got older and had their own families this happened less and less. Christmas makes a date for families to get together. I like that. I want that for my family (that is our children, etc). Sure I'd like it to be called something other than "Christmas" but I don't think that's going to happen anytime real soon!!

  • Scully
    Scully

    Romans 14

    1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

    5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

    10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister [a] ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:

    “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
    ‘every knee will bow before me;
    every tongue will acknowledge God.’” [b]

    12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

    13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister. 14 I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean. 15 If your brother or sister is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy someone for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what you know is good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

    I like the thought in verses 1 and 2 that describe the person "weak in faith" as being the one who feels it necessary to abstain from eating certain foods or observing certain days, because most JWs feel that they are quite the opposite of being "weak in faith", yet Paul, by identifying this sort of nit-picking as a form of spiritual weakness, shows up the JWs for their lack of true spirituality, which should arise from within themselves and should not be constrained by the opinions of other people. In other passages, Paul carries on that theme by saying that spiritually mature people do not need to rely on teachers (or external assistance to understand scripture), but can hold their own in a discussion, and can form their own opinions based on how the holy spirit leads them.

    Verses 5 and 6 are my absolute favourites when discussing whether it is appropriate to celebrate holidays or birthdays. Paul makes it abundantly clear that each person should be "fully convinced in their own mind" and not be swayed by the opinions of other people. He did not condemn people who celebrated and he did not condemn those who abstained. It was to be a completely personal decision that was none of anyone else's business. The fact is that the WTS has strayed from this fundamental teaching and embraced a culture of spiritual weakness for its followers - it does this, no doubt, to maintain control over followers instead of directing them in a way that helps individuals reach a level of spiritual maturity that is free from outside influence - which would be bad news for their cash flow.

    My suggestion to you would be to have seasonal decorations in your home, stuff that your child will enjoy, without any religious overtones. Our first Christmas we made cut-out snowflakes to put up on the windows, and I did baking that filled the house with warm and cozy aromas (cinnamon, hot chocolate with marshmallows, gingerbread cookies). I made a decoration for the front door that featured evergreen branches and pine cones and a few handmade mittens, and bought a small rosemary plant (looks like a tiny evergreen tree) for my kitchen. I started a collection of snowman figurines to put out on the tables and shelves. There's nothing wrong with celebrating the seasons and it will drive the JWs to distraction because they will look for evidence of False Religion™ in what you are doing, but if you keep it simple like that and focus on the seasons (that goes for all holidays - at Easter do a "springtime" theme, for Thanksgiving/Hallowe'en do an "autumn" theme) it will just frustrate them that they can't form a Judicial Committee™ or go after you in any other manner. I thoroughly enjoyed screwing with them like that.

  • stuckinlimbo
    stuckinlimbo

    Hi Scully

    I love your line of reasoning, however, wouldn't they just fall back on the idea that your celebrating the seasons venerates the pagan gods associated with the seasons? By the way, I am in Australia, so I can't really put up snowflakes and call it "welcoming the season" lol! I love lights and tinsel, which have no origin other than being associated with modern Christmas celebrations. I already have a string of icicle lights, which I put up (at the back of the house) the other day, and my son showed them to my mum, who said they were very pretty and that she liked lights lol.... but next year he may start to notice that we don't have a Christmas tree, if we don't. It's not like I'll have angels and stuff as decorations, as I'm not into that, but the tree itself I'm pretty sure they can call pagan, despite the pinata article, they will just say it's associated with Christmas, yada yada. And they would focus on do not stumble others, and if I said I was not known as a witness I would be tying my own noose I think... Has anyone sucessfully gotten away with a Christmas tree? I want a light green one with blue shiny ball things and silver tinsel, evil person that I am

  • lifestooshort
    lifestooshort

    I cant say what you should do but I can tell you how I handled my situation. I am divorced with shared custody of my 7 yr old daughter, and I am DF. My ex side of family are JW's. So my daughter lives in 2 households. I had to get into the Xmas thing slowly. If I went all out my daughter would feel like she is being "bad" and not enjoy it. My first year was wrapped gifts. Second year was xmas lights and wrapped gifts. She thought the lights were pretty. Third year was lights, gifts, and a xmas tree. I couldnt go for the tree right away because her grandma was teaching her Jehovah hates Xmas trees. But I reasoned with her that it is a tree. It is not lying, stealing or anything bad. And Jehovah made it. Now my 7 yr old daughter just thinks of their views as their beliefs and thats it. Hope that helps.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Christmas is lovely and one of the benefits of letting go religious thinking is the ability to select the useful from the useless without misguided guilt. So for us we decorate our house but we don't go too ott , we buy a good set of presents but don't get into debt to do so, we eat well but don't drink alcohol, when the kids get old enough to care I tell them Santa is a myth ( my wife reluctantly lets me) but a fun one.

    This year we are planning several days out at Christmas fairs and I've got a whole load of Christmas carols and tunes ready ready to blare out over December. Xianity may suck but they made a cracking job of Xmas.

    If you want to experience a great full family experience I'd suggest removing the decorations prior to the visit since it is more important to enjoy family than tinsel but then make sure you put it back up again after !

    Oooo I'm getting all excited.

  • nugget
    nugget

    We decided to give our children the opportunity to have a normal life and to celebrate Christmas and other days since not sharing in the holidays is extremely isolating. However there is an issue for all faders and that is then expecting a child to keep a secret with the potential that they may slip up and reveal everything. This can put tremendous pressure on the child with the potential for guilt if they inadvertently give the game away and get the parents into trouble. If you take the decision to celebrate then you need to ensure that your child is aware that whatever happens it is ok.

    My son is autistic and cannot lie to save his life, we knew the potential for disaster when we started to celebrate but decided that giving our children a happy childhood was more important than living in fear. When the elders did decide to DF us because we refused to aknowledge that the GB was Gods representative on Earth we told our son that it was ok and that the elders had come to the house to tell us we could do whatever we liked as they were no longer interested in us and we could have a really nice Christmas tree.

  • lifestooshort
    lifestooshort

    Nugget ... you bring up a valid point. Asking a child to keep a secret is too much. After all adults cant even do it. Plus the implication is that you are doing something that needs to be hidden, something bad.

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    I'm going to echo the sentiments mentioned already. It really is a choice between being truly free and letting your child have normal life...or still being controlled by a cult through the threat of losing your family and denying your son normality. I've lost everyone in my family that was a JW and I'm not even disfellowshipped. If they would shun you, ask yourself how deep their love for you can truly be if they can shun their own child.

    Ask yourself whether you want the risk of them indoctrinating your son if you're not around. Are you willing to demand that they only see him if they are at your house so you can supervise? It may come down to that because many JW grandparents will not comply with the parents' wishes. My mother didn't. In their trying to "inculcate" the cult into him, they may inadvertently undermine your authority. They may poison him against you. You just don't know until you're in the situation, but you need to be prepared for that.

    As for being Atheist and celebrating Christmas, that is a very personal decision that you have to make for yourself. I am an Atheist and I am in love with secular Christmas. My boyfriend and I will not have an angel on our tree, but we do have a star (which as a different meaning for us than the Nativity star). I am Atheist with a dash of Pagan thrown in (yes, it's possible), so Christmas (or more accurately the Winter Solstice) is perfectly acceptable for me to celebrate. If you as an Atheist want to celebrate Christmas, that's your right and your business. Your reasons for doing so are also your business. No one has the right to say you shouldn't because you are Atheist, nor do they have the right to judge you based on your decision to do so. Isn't that one of the reasons why we're no longer JW's?

  • blondie
    blondie

    No creche, Santa, or angels in our decorating. We use snowmen and snowflakes. Our lights are just white and we have them up all year long. I know non-jws that don't put a tree but decorate tables, the fireplace, etc.

    Call it a winter celebration and have it extend way past December 25, perhaps to March.

    I can bet that your jw family keep secrets from you.

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