Johnathan -- " At that time the sign ofthe Son of Man will appear in thesky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." "Josephus Wars Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2 and 3) War 6:286 (6.5.2.286) Now, there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose upon the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God: and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might bebuoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. War 6:288 ¶ (6.5.3.288) Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend, nor give credit, to the signs that wereso evident and did so plainly foretell their future desolation; but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see, or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. War 6:289 (6.5.3.289) Thus therewas a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. War 6:290 (6.5.3.290) Thus also, before the Jews’ rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which light lasted for half an hour. War 6:291 (6.5.3.291) This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. War 6:296 (6.5.3.296) So these publicly declared, that this signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month Artemisius [Jyar], War 6:297 (6.5.3.297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, War 6:298 (6.5.3.298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen War 6:299 (6.5.3.299) running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, War 6:300 (6.5.3.300) and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” " http://www.preterist.org/preteristQA.asp
In the LAST DAYS (mockers, scoffers) ridiculers will come saying:
by Terry 100 Replies latest watchtower bible
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N.drew
Testing....
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The Quiet One
Cofty said: "But even in Acts and the epistlesnowhere is there even the slightest clue that anybody expected Jesus' return to be in afuture generation." -- I agree. Here are some examples.. " Matt. 16:27, 28, For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to His deeds. "Truly I say to you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." Matt.24:34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Rom. 13:12, “ The night is nearly over; the day is almost here.” Rom. 16:20, “The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.” I Cor. 7:29 and 31, “The time is short. This world in its present form is passing away.” I Cor. 10:11, “These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.” I Tim. 6:14, “Keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. ” Hebrews 10:37, “In just a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay.” James 5:7, “Be patient until the Lord’s coming.” James 5:8, “The Lord’s coming is near.” James 5:9, “The judge is standingat the door.” I Peter 4:7, “The endof all things has drawn near.” I John 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. Rev. 22:6, 7, "And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; ... the things which must soon take place. "And behold, I am coming quickly.... Rev. 22:10, 12, And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."Behold, I am coming quickly, andMy reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Rev. 22:20, He who testifies to these things says,"Yes, I am coming quickly," Amen.Come, Lord Jesus. " http://www.preterist.org/preteristQA.asp
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jonathan dough
But even in Acts and the epistles nowhere is there even the slightest clue that anybody expected Jesus' return to be in a future generation.
Its possible to see adjustment of expectations and the possiblity of some falling asleep in death but not of the parousia being at a distant future time.
That has absolutely no bearing on whether the parousia would be in the future. Their inability to understand is not the test, and it never has been. Peter spoke of some of Paul's writings that were difficult to understand. That didn't make Paul wrong, just because others didn't know what would transpire in the future. They didn't understand the trinity doctrine as it has been developed and revealed to us, or the true nature of Christ, that he was divinity and God the Son, either. The pillars of the early church, the Jewish Christians, had it wrong as well with respect to issues like circumcision and compliance with the Law, and they were wrong with respect to how the faith developed over time. Truth is a polished mirror. And look at Daniel. He didn't understand a fraction of what he was writing down.
nowhere is there even the slightest clue that anybody expected Jesus' return to be in a future generation.
That's not true. Like I wrote before, Matthew 24, 25 have a clear and unmistakable world-centric view with a future application, in addition to applying to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 A.D. And let's not forget the Book of Revelation. Jesus himself said he would return AFTER the Great Tribulation. Of course you can ignore that. If I were you I'd take a closer look back at my post.
Zephaniah 1:4 " I will also stretch out my hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests".. When God was wiping everyone from the ground, did he miss a spot? Forgive my sarcasm.. But why would verses 2+3 be referring to the whole earth, would that not make verse 4 pointless? If God were talking about destroying the whole earth , why would he have to point out that the destruction would ALSO include Judah?
That's not a very good reason. With respect to the end times, he was emphasizing that Israel and Judah will not escape as many believe, and that he would destroy those within her, the false prophets and pagan priests as well. He didn't leave out a spot, but added a spot, and was driving a point home, that's all. There's no way you can interpret these verses as YHWH sparing the Baal worshipers and pagan priests when so much of the Bible is devoted to condemning them. The Bible is full of examples where God speaks of destroying an area in general terms, then specifies in greater detail those countries, tribes and/or regions that are included therein. God's judgment against "these lands" of Jeremiah chapter 25 comes to mind. Isaiah likewise.
" At that time the sign ofthe Son of Man will appear in thesky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." "Josephus Wars Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2 and 3) War 6:286 (6.5.2.286) Now, there was then a great num .... m was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, War 6:300 (6.5.3.300) and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, “Let us remove hence.” " http://www.preterist.org/preteristQA.asp
I have no idea what you are trying to say or how this specifically relates to anything I've written.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/607/i-6.html#L
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The Quiet One
The Josephus quotes were just possible fulfillments of the 'sign in the sky', and they, interestingly, confirm other physical signs, such as an earthquake.. You had claimed that as nobody had seen the sign of the Jesus, there must be a Second Coming.. Johnathan said:"Not at all. The Son of Man returnsafter the Great Tribulation, but the Great Tribulation is a future event. Verses 29, 30 .." Immediately after the distress (Great Tribulation) of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' " At that time the sign ofthe Son of Man will appear in thesky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory." "Those days" refer to the future. The Jews did not see the Son of Man coming in 70 A.D. ".. The stars falling from the sky does not have to be literal if you read any decent Bible commentary, and here's another explanation of what the sign of the Son of Man could have meant.. "To understand what this sign was, we first need to have a correct translation. The NIV really adds to the confusion, it reads,"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky." A word-for-word rendering from the Greek reads: "And then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven." Notice carefully that the location is heaven, not the sky; and it is not the sign that is in heaven, but the Son of Man who is in heaven. The point is this: The destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish temple was the sign that the Son of Man was in heaven. J. Marcellus Kik said, "A sign was not to appear in the heavens, but the destruction of Jerusalem was to indicate the rule of the Son of man in heaven." The wording of this passage refers us back to the expression, "The Son of Man," found in Daniel 7:13, which Jesus used concerning Himself when referring to His coming (Matthew 24:27). The judgment of Jerusalem was a sign that the Son of Man was in heaven in fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14. Here we see Jesus, the Son of Man, coming to the Ancient of days and receiving His everlasting kingdom. This prophecy was fulfilled at the Ascension (Acts 2:30-36). The kingdom received from the Ancient of days is no other than the kingdom symbolized by the stone cut out of the mountain (Daniel 2:34-35):The kingdom was given to Christ at His ascension, and this was made manifest to all Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Jerusalem's destruction was a sign that Jesus Christ was the Messiah of God. In Matthew 26:63-64, Caiaphas, the high priest, asks Jesus if he is the Son of God, the Messiah. Notice the similarities between Jesus' answer to Caiaphas and what he said in our text. Matthew 24:30 (NKJV) "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all thetribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Jesus told Caiaphas, "You will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power." He said to His disciples, "They would see the sign that the son of man was in heaven." He told Caiaphas, "You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven." He told His disciples, "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." It is obviously the same event in both passages. Notice Caiaphas' response to Jesus' statement (Matthew 26:65). What did Jesus say that was blasphemy? Caiaphas understood that Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah. In order to understand what Jesus is saying, we need to understand the idea that is behind "coming in the clouds." God's "coming on the clouds of heaven" is a symbolic way of speaking of His presence, judgment and salvation. All through the Old Testament God was coming "on clouds," in salvation of His people and judgment of His enemies. Coming on the clouds indicates His Presence: Exodus 16:10; 19:9; 34:5, Leviticus 16:2, Numbers 11:25. Salvation: In Psalms 18:9-12, David speaks of his deliverance from Saul using apocalyptic language. Judgment: The idea of God's coming in the clouds is also associated with His judgment of his enemies (Isaiah 19:1). We know from chapter 20 that God used the Assyrians as instruments of His wrath on Egypt, yet it says, "The LORD rides on a swift cloud..., Egypt will totter at His presence." God came to Egypt in judgment in 480BC. His presence was made known injudgment. But it was the Assyrians who were literally present. Similar language is used of Nineveh's fall (Nahum 1:3, 5-6):We know that Nineveh was destroyed, not by a literal coming of God out of heaven on the clouds, but by the invading armies of the Chaldeans and Medes in 612 BC."-- At least this explanation makes sense with language used elsewhere in the Bible, and that the apostles would likely have understood.And yes, Cofty, I do understand it.. Here's the link... http://ecclesia.org/truth/mat07.html
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Larsinger58
Terry: After all, any god worthy of that title either wishes to communicate sensibly or simply jaw-jack.
Terry. Your point is well taken, except you are not considering what is to prophetically happen right at the second coming. There are many references, so I'll just use this one: the ten virgins. ALL virgins before the 2nd coming nod and their lamps grow dim. That fits the idea of Matthew 24:29-30 where there is a divinely imposed spiritual darkness. So you are experiencing the frustration of how the Bible is not giving out a clear and simple message for some things. But that is what was planned. Even so, once the knowledge is available, only those focssed on the details of scripture, that is the "extra oil" get the new light understanding. That would be when the "wise virgins" use their extra oil to get their lamps burning again. BUT... they don't explain things to the foolish virgins. In fact, they tell the foolish virgins to bug off and get their own!
Thus, yes, from the position of the foolish virgins, the gospels and the gospel message is blunted and blurred. But for the elect, the chosen "wise virgins", they see how to solve the puzzles and connect the dots, so it is they, this minority, who have the clarity of truth.
So your point is well taken that if God wanted people to understand he could have done a better job of making things more direct and more simple. But he does not intend to do that except for the elect. For others, they are to remain in darkness until later. So God is not giving light to everyone at this point, or I should say, God gives understanding to some earlier than others.
You have taken the position that because this is not clear and simple for everyone that the gospels must not be inspired. But they are inspired and understood by some, but not others. If you are part of the "foolish virgins" group, then you dwell in darkness for a while. In the meantime, though, the "wise virgins" have their lamps glowing and they get to join the messiah's second coming wedding feast. The feast began in 1992. So I can assure you, the gospels are inspired but also that the confusion is direct and intentional.
But where to you go from here. I have the advanced truth, but do you believe I'm the messiah? Maybe you can't! Remember what Acts 13:40 says:
40 Therefore see to it that what is said in the Prophets does not come upon YOU , 41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’”
So you see, even if you stumble upon the correct understanding, which essentially you have since I've shared it in this discussion group, it is so strange and so different, it's just too hard to believe. That's what you are experiencing now, the unbelievable reality of chronology and Christ arriving in the flesh through someone else's identity. This was suggested after Christ was resurrected who kept changing his identity so that he was not recognized. When he arose he was using someone else's identity as well and he said he would return just as he left. So the last body he materialized was a clone of me, an ordinary looking black man with glasses. (grin)
It's hard for even me to believe. I'm shocked myself. It was all a big surprise. But ALL of it is right there in the Scriptures. The "wise virgins" can take that leap and fill in the blanks because they are focussed on it, the "extra oil", but the majority do not have the faith or spiritual maturity to bridge that gap. Their concept of the second coming is so engrained and emotional, they can't handle the disappointment. It doesn't mean all are rejected, however, it just means there are two camps. The older brother who remains outside the celebration and the wedding feast, and those part of the wedding feast with the messiah, who is the prodigal son.
Bottom line, if you are not of the elect at this time, the "wise virgins" than the gospels will remain confusing and nonsensical and contradictory--but they are not. They are masterfully designed to be complex with secrets to be revealed to the chosen, at least at first.
LS
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Larsinger58
LeavingWT: This was one example of a failed prophecy by Jesus.
No, it is not. "This generation", meaning those alive during Jesus' day, would not pass away until he arrives in 1992. But this relates to Jesus' other words where he directly says that 'some standing here would not die until he arrives.' (Mark 9:1)
What does that mean? It means either Christ would return within the time of a normal lifespan, OR that some from that generation would never die and still be alive over the entire period of 1900+ years. The latter is what happened. Some from the 1st Century have never died. Regardless of whether you can believe that based on cultural bias, that is what the Bible teaches. Paul was one of those chosen never to die, which is why he uses the word "survive" when speaking of his being among those who would never die. He knew this was a long time and "survive" is the term that references living past the normal age. Note Paul's inclusion of himself when speaking of the two groups among Christians back then.
As a quick background, there were two groups of Christians. Those who would die and be resurrected during our time, and those who would "survive" and not die and remain among the living. The question being addressed was who would get to heaven first? Those who had to be resurrected or those who were still alive when Christ arrived? Good question. The answer is that all "together" would go to heaven because those resurrected are resurrected back in the flesh to join those still alive in the flesh to serve in the flish during the millennium and then Judgment Day. So everybody is back in the flesh first. Then all, "together" go to heaven and get spirit bodies after all the work on the earth is done. So that was Paul's answer. However, note that he includes himself in the "living" group who were to live on and "survive" down to the Lord's day:
1 Thesss 4:15 "...that we the living who SURVIVEto the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]."
See that? They all knew back then that Christ would not arrive until many died off and would need to be resurrected.
Jumping back to the main point, about Jesus' prophecy not being fulfilled. Sure, it is not fulfilled if we superimpose upon that generation a normal lifespan, which is a normal presumption, of course, nothing wrong with that. BUT, once you realize some are chosen to live on and never die, then you can't say the prophecy was not fulfilled. Jesus was assuring them that some in that generation would not die until he arrived just as he was saying some standing there with him would not die until he arrived, not to say that he would be arriving within that generation but to say that some from that generation would live on into the future past their normal lifespans, far into the future when Christ was to arrive!
So the prophecy was fulfilled. Christ arrived in 1992 and Paul and John and Jesus' mother are still very much alive. I've seen and/or met them in my capacity as a special prophets.
Of course, I don't expect you to believe that, so I'll be satisfied with simply noting your interpretation about "this generation" is incorrect. Whether or not any of this is true, Jesus was not saying he would arrive before that generation died out of natural causes, but that that generation would survive and still be alive when he arrived well into the future. And, indeed, some from "this generation" did experience the 2nd coming in 1992, so his prophecy came true. Jesus is not a false prophet, of course. But you are, technically, since you claim Jesus' is a false prophet. (smile)
ciao
LS
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N.drew
Perhaps "his arriving" means his "fully accomplishing his minstry" which happened at his execution. Now his accomplishment is here for the world. Take it, or leave it. He has always been here. He can't come back if he is here.
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N.drew
So then why did he say that he would go? He did go in the imagination of all the people.
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The Quiet One
Lars said: "Christ arrived in 1992 and Paul and John and Jesus' mother are still very much alive. I've seen and/or met them in my capacity as a special prophets." Does Paul still have a problem with women, or has he finally got married? I'm sure she won't mind the slight age difference. After all, once you pass 1,000 , the age gap seems to get smaller, doesn't it? “Taking crazy things seriously is a serious waste of time.” Haruki Murakami , Kafka on theShore