An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

tec

Q - I was rude to you on my last post to you. So I apologize. I regret that I pushed back. Not that the things I said on the subjects raised were not true.
You think that the elephant in the room is God? Well, he can't be, imo, not in this conversation. This conversation is about God, so he's out there in the open. The elephant in the room that I see is the imaginary christians that some keep referring to. For instance, I don't believe the things you keep saying that I believe. I don't run from science... I embrace it. Science does not do anything to disprove God. A literal rendering of the bible, sure... but that has nothing to do with my faith. 'Threaten you with implied eternal doom'? Never. Not once have I ever even alluded to this. There have been many things you have accused me of thinking/believing/feeling... none of them are accurate. I have responded to every one of them. Again, when I do, you ignore that. But here I am, back on this thread that I don't want to be on anymore, answering and responding to you.
As to your bullet points, God, the Father of Christ... cannot be wrong. (well, maybe he can be wrong about us; maybe we can suprise him... for good or bad. I don't know.) I, however, am wrong all the time. I most certainly CAN be wrong about God, and have been (my stint with the JW's offered as evidence on that)... but most often I am wrong when I am not looking to Christ to understand the Truth of God.
Personally, I don't think common ground is all that hard to find. We want the world to be a better place. We want the homeless sheltered, the hungry fed, the abuse of innocents to stop. Faith and compassion compel me to help when I help. Compassion compels you to help when you help.
So what is the problem, really?
Peace,
Tammy
OnTheWayOut

My god cannot be wrong.
IF there is a God, not He can;t be wrong BUT MINE/OUR view of him certainly can.

PSac, only the God of most modern people's creation is never wrong. Back in the day (and in the Old Testament), Gods were known for being petty and jealous and exacting retribution. If there were a creator, there is plenty of chances that it would not be perfect. Mankind could have been created on a hangover or a bet.

I believe in the god-who-cannot-be-wrong ergo I cannot be wrong on any metaphysical point relating to him.

Unless a human being IS god then YES, they can be wrong ( even IF they are right about there being a God they cna be wrong about HOW God is).

Your point is similar to the point Qcmbr is trying to make. People are wrong, but many believers act as if their thoughts on the creator cannot be wrong. Maybe that isn't your problem, but you've read many of the other thoughts.

Any fact that does not support the above premises must be incorrect, misapplied or subject to a super fact that will explain it but is not scientifically knowable.

Not sure what you mean.

Part of what that means is that believers get a free pass to dismiss any logical, rational thoughts from unbelievers if those thoughts question the rightness of anything related to God or the believers' thoughts on God. If Jeff or OTWO make a seemingly valid point where they cannot really dispute it, then "God's ways are a mystery or His thoughts are higher than ours. It is not ours to question."

The final stonewall that cannot be breached is my personal communication with my god. This single subjective knowledge trumps all other forms of knowledge or logic. It does not matter that I alone can verify this, it is more important and relevant in the discussion than anything else and I will allude to it regularly as an undefeatable point since only an argument of insanity would be a rational attack and I can simply deflect that as name calling.

I can't speak for others of course, but for me, what I learn from My Lord MUST conincide with what can be KNOWN to be true, in some form.

You are an exception. Many believers SAY that the information is available to everyone and fall back on the 'name calling' or demand for automatic respect of their knowing their statement of belief is right.

TheUbermensch

Well, this discussion is definitely over. Q definitely just defeated every theist on the thread. The best way to win an argument is to show how irrational/predictable the opposing side's rebuttals are, and he just did that. Whether believers accept it or not, they just lost... horribly. VICTORY!!!! LOL

N.drew

Because you can not be the last poster, because that's MY job, I will post what I think of Q's conclusion. It's quite good. It's not too bad, really! But that other one, with all the yellow, that's hard to read, but not all bad either.

PSacramento

Part of what that means is that believers get a free pass to dismiss any logical, rational thoughts from unbelievers if those thoughts question the rightness of anything related to God or the believers' thoughts on God.

It's a beleiver duty to answer ANY logical and rational question and if the believer can't answer it, it is his/her duty to say "I don't know".

Certainly the answer, if there is one, may NOT be what the unbeliever wants to hear or even agree with, but the answer should be as logical and rational as possible.

Obviously we don't know ALL there is to know about God, just as we don't know all there is to know about the universe, but we should have some sort of rational response.

Of course there are times where unbelievers may get an answer that THEY don't agree with or that THEY don't view as "logical" or "rational" base don THEIR POV or understanding, but nothing can be done about that.

unshackled

Further to what PSac wrote above, this quote is from Nickolas on his Hubble thread and think it applies here as well:

we are speaking different languages to one another and there is no way we are capable of understanding what each other is trying to say. To each and all, I respect that you have chosen the path on which you find yourselves. All I ask in return is that you respect mine.

check

To be honest with you, AK-Jeff, it seems to be that no one on this board has the answer. This AGuest person and others seem to think they know, but as you can see their arguments (or rebuttals) cant hold water either.

Im not much of a god-follower type, but I can understand your frustration and the point of your post. Basically, if god is so powerful and great, etc. etc., why is he letting thousands of thousands of people suffer and die (an example being starvation)?

Here's my question back to you. Since we all know now that there are lots of people dying of starvation, what are we going to do about it? Why dont we all stop talking about it and get out there and do something about it? We could sell our things, donate our stuff, and give all the proceeds we make toward that cause. Why dont we put our money where our mouth is and instead of complaining about it (not to say that you dont have a valid point in what you're arguing), we do something to lessen the amount of people who are suffering and dying in this world?

On another note, why dont we ask God why he doesnt force all of us and everyone else (atheist or not) who has money to donate (as much as God sees fit) to lessen the amount of hungry people suffering and dying in this world?

OnTheWayOut

what are we going to do about it? Why dont we all stop talking about it and get out there and do something about it?

That's a fine question and all, but it really shows our true feelings beyond the idea that "whatever God does must be good."

I don't claim omnibenevolence and I don't claim I am evil either. But if some want to call it evil, fine. Go ahead. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

If I am not doing all that I can in my limited capacity, and it is called to judgement, then we all know what we would hope that an actual omnibenevolent being/spirit/person with unlimited power would do. Call anyone suspected of omnipotense and omnibenevolence into judgement if you see failure to act.

N.drew

Hi check! Welcome to an old argument. Why do we not sacrifice our means of comfortable living to assist them for their very life? The logical reason is, there are more problems down the road and money won't cure them. World has to wake up and grow up. The root of the problem needs to be discovered and eliminated.

still thinking

And the root of the problem must in fact be the creator...because if there is one...he didn't do a very good job did he?

Or do we just want to thank him for everything that WE do that is good...but not blame him for anything that WE do or don't do that is bad?

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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