How Have you Counted your time for Pioneering?

by jehu or jehonadab 111 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  Teary Oberon

  Pioneer service is entirely voluntary.

  The real point is: "“In case you vow a vow to Jehovah your God, you must not be slow about paying it, because Jehovah your God will without fail require it of you, and it would indeed become a sin on your part."

  The work was far, far heavier and more difficult for the prophets and messengers of old, and yet Jehovah expected them to carry out their assignments regardless. Heck, they didn't even have cars back then!

  That little slip that pioneers sign? That is their vow to their God to carry out so much of his work in preaching and teaching. When they lie and exagerate about their time, the main offense is to their God and to themselves, not the congregation. They should do what they say they are going to do and do it honestly. Let their "yes" mean "yes."

  But of course, you youngsters today probably never learned good old fashioned principles like "keeping your word even when nobody is likely to find out."
• 

  still thinking

  Teary....Why do you think it is so important that ANYONE should be honest to such a dishonest cult? People were obviously making the best of a bad situation.

  No one is talking about a loving grandfather and I don't think it is reasonable to compare the WTS and all its dishonesty to your grandfather, do you?...unless of course you are saying that your grandfather was just like the WT cult...then of course....you have a valid comparison.
• 

  factfinder

  I am also surprised ,as Teary is, at how dishonest some "pioneers" were in reporting their fs.

  Pioneering is VOLUNTARY. When I was an aux pioneer I signed up because I wanted to.

  People should be honest. If you felt it was a cult when you were a witness then why did you go out in FS?

  I sometimes find it hard to believe that some posters here were ever Jehovah's Witnesses. I guess they were in "show" only, I have no idea what a persons motivation would be to pioneer if you did not believe jws had the truth? No one held a gun to your head.

  When I no longer wanted to share in fs anymore I just stopped. I did not hand in fake time slips. My dedication was to Jehovah, not the elders. I stopped because I am angry at God for my dear Mom's suffering and death. I no longer cared if I pleased God or not.

  When I was a witness I was always honest.
• 

  Teary Oberon

  "Teary....Why do you think it is so important that ANYONE should be honest to such a dishonest cult? People were obviously making the best of a bad situation."

  We are not talking about being honest or dishonest with the organization, we are talking about being honest with YOURSELF and with your GOD, who you make your vows to. Ethics and honesty are a matter of personal principles and values. Being honest with the organization comes in third, but that still hinges on the first two (you can't really do any without doing them all).

  If you cannot fulfill your vows, then don't make them in the first place. If you think that the organziation is a lying 'cult,' then don't dedicate or report any time (one who believes that but still takes part in the Witness preaching work is also not being honest with himself).
• 

  lifestooshort

  "God would certainly hate you..." Seriously... Somebody help me here, I was taught that God is (____), I keep forgetting that last part! Let me go ask someone more rightous they will know that last part.
• 

  still thinking

  factfinder....I would hazzard a guess to agree with you and say that it probably was for show only...since if they were born in they didn't feel like they had much choice. And once they did discover that choice...it involved potentially losing their families and friends.

  So honesty is a great ideal when there is not much to loose...but when a cult like the WTS dictates everything about your life...it takes a lot of balls to bite the bullet and be honest doesn't it? It is a process, first they have to be honest to themselves when all around them have been lying.

  Have you read the book 'Facing the lion by Simone Arnold Liebster? That is a very interesting book. I remember reading this when I was studying with the witnessess. On one hand it shows bravery and honesty to the extreme....but I couldn't help the feeling that as parents they put their family through that trauma unnecessarily...ok make a stand for youself if you want, but to allow that to happen to your children because of your belief and 'honesty'....unforgiveable in my opinion.

  And now that I think about it...how honest were they? They hid books, sneeked them in, had secret meetings...is it honest because it is in the name of Jehovah?

  If your child was starving would you steal to feed them? Would that be honest?
• 

  factfinder

  A major reason for my anger at god is that I felt he betrayed me by what happenned to my Mom. When I was a witness any fs I did (alot!) was because I wanted to please Jehovah. After doing all I was taught Jehovah wanted me to do and making so many sacrifices for Jehovah for close to 3 decades I felt (and feel) God betrayed me.

  But my point is, if you went out in fs, especially pioneering, you should have been honest with God since he was your reason for going out in fs in the first place.

  If you went out in fs for any other reason you should not have been allowed to.

  (I'm not refering to small children being dragged out in fs by their witness parents.)
• 

  still thinking

  you should have been honest with God since he was your reason for going out in fs in the first place.

  And there you have the reason for the dishonesty...God was not the reason...The WTS version of Jehovah was their reason...And their version is dishonest. The hours spent are to appease the WTS gods, not god. The only dishonesty that has occured is towards the watchtower gods in Brooklyn. So honesty does not come from dishonesty.
• 

  Quarterback

  Signing that piece of paper is not a vow to Jehovah.

  A vow to Jehovah doesn't include a sheet of paper. Are you insinuating that some that don't make up their time during the year are violating a vow to Jehovah? Let me tell you, that I have been in a position to authorize whether regular pioneers would be allowed to continue into the next service year . I didn't have special powers from Jehovah to do that. It was all part of the structure of the ORG. I was just part of a Service Committee. I have seen many that weren't healthy enough to get those hrs for that month that they signed for. But, it was something that made them feel good. These ones accurately reported their time whether it was short or right on. When they were short....they didn't break any vows to Jehovah.

  To put that guilt trip on people is harse, and demanding.

  Let make this point clear....I support honesty. But, what has been brought up in this post is minor things, unless I missed something.

  By the way, those prophets of old never signed a sheet that needed to be co-signed by the Service Committee, as well.
• 

  factfinder

  still thinking-

  No- I am not familiar with "Facing The Lion". What was it about? was it written by witnesses or about them?

  While I was not raised a witness (I started studying right out of Hs when I was 18) I did feel under much pressure in the congs I was in. But I refused to let the society control everything about me. I was very active in many areas of the truth for years, but some elders disliked me and I had no interest in pleasing them, since I was there to serve Jehovah, not men.

  I feel sorry for children who were forced into fs by their parents, but when I was almost 13 I gave up going to temple. It greatly displeased my relatives, especially my Grandparents and my parents but I no longer cared about Judaism or wanted any religion so I refused to go to Hebrew school or temple anymore- it was not easy, but I stopped going no matter what my parents said.

  And when I was 18 my parents & relatives were 100% against my studying with the witnesses & my brother and I were disowned by my Grandparents.

  The point I am making is, at some point each of us has to make our own descisions as to what to believe regardless of what our family may think or say about it. I'm the 'black sheep' in my family but I will never give in to what they want when its against my beliefs. My relatives have nothing to do with me, and the witnesses don't either-so I lost a lot. But I won't let anyone tell me what to believe. That is a 100% personal decision.

  So, if someone raised as a jw, is now an adult, and they still go out in fs or pioneer for the wrong reasons, then they are dishonest and diserved any bad experiences they may have faced because of it.

  If my child (if I had any) was starving and the only way I could feed them was to steal then yes, I would steal to feed them. No that would not be honest.

  But an adult witness who lies about their fs has no excuse in my opinion and is a liar. And lying about your fs time is far different than stealing to feed your starving child.