Are you saying the people in Jonestown wanted to die NewChapter?
I don't think so.
Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?
by Witness 007 79 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Witness 007
Sorry but survivor accounts and even the Jim Jones recodings show many did willing comply dying arm in arm......one of the leading members suggested they defect to the Soviet embassy instead which was rejected by the majority.
Remember that Jehovah told Abraham to kill his son.....so he sharpened his knife and was prepared to do it!!! Twisting scriptures can do wonders.
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NewChapter
I am saying that they were willing to do more than RISK dying. They knew with certainty they WOULD die---or---they thought it was a trial run and were tricked into suicide. Those that weren't willing were disposed of easily enough.
Had you taken this same group of people and suddenly asked them to drink something that would kill them--they wouldn't do it. They had been conditioned to believe that this may be required of them. I watched a video where a man at Jonestown said he was willing to die, but that he felt differently about his child. He was shouted down by a woman who insisted he must be willing to have his child die for the cause. Again--isolated--groomed---underfed. The dynamic is extremely different.
JW's don't generally walk around thinking that one day they will have to take their lives for their cause. Hand them a poisonous drink---what will be their response? Suicide is wrong! i can't do this to my god. I read a story about a woman who suffered with a painful bladder condition---I know this condition is real and excruciating because I know someone with it. She confessed that many times she wanted to die, but the thing that stopped her was her love for her god. These people believe that life is sacred and it is not up to them to take it. There is an unwillingness to take a life---their own or another's---but there is a willingness to die for their beliefs if that is the only option.
Are you saying this mindset is NOT different? Our greatest weapon against the WT is the truth. Any JW would balk at the idea that they would drink poison---and rightfully so. They wouldn't. When we start accusing them of things they wouldn't do, we water down our case. They will simply dismiss us as though we don't understand--they would be right.
If their teachings ever change---ever become more sinister---this could change too. But I don't see that happening. And it really would take a great deal more isolation to achieve this end.
Remember Waco? Those people were willing to die. A teenager that left the compound even explained that it was a constant teaching and they were taught the "proper" way to shoot themselves. In the mouth toward the brain---because a shot to the temple may not do the trick. Can you see the difference? This was taught, and reinforced, and coupled with total control.
Yes, the WT is a high control religion---it seeks to have it's member self indoctrinate. But they still go out there, they still have family, schoolmates, workmates to keep them in the here. They are physically free to walk away--physically free to turn on their computers. They have time alone. They are not kept awake night after night being indoctrinated. This was common both in Waco and Jonestown. EXTREME lack of sleep, lack of nutrition, lack of contact.
NC
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Mickey mouse
As we get nearer to the outbreak of the great tribulation, we may well receive some detailed instructions. Our safe journey through those troublesome days will depend on our keeping in step with other loyal servants of Jehovah.
This is a direct quote from the Watchtower. It was discussed in this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/152151/1/Alarming-statement-in-todays-study-article-in-WT
I don't think it's ambiguous. Your life depends on you obeying us without question.
Would JWs obey? Most, yes.
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Mickey mouse
They are physically free to walk away--physically free to turn on their computers. They have time alone.
Which means that the average JW needs to have a more developed self regulation system than a cult member in a closed off community. Jones isn't in the pavilion, he's in your head!
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NewChapter
MM, do you honestly believe if suddenly, without any preparation, the WT were to say---kill yourself---that they would follow without question? Are you devaluing the horror that humans lived through at Waco and Jonestown? Why do these cases always include extreme isolation and physical and mental abuse---lack of sleep---poor nutrition?
We will leave this conversation thinking what we will----but SUICIDE is NOT part of JW culture---that is individuals may be pushed by despair to commit suicide, but it is not something they are actively taught and pressured into doing. I don't think you understand the extreme circumstances these people were living under.
Without some preparation---some early indoctrination---increasing pressure--they are not going to take a sudden command to kill themselves as the kind of obedience being asked for. Now if we see some grooming here---this could change. When they read above quote, they are not thinking, "Oh yeah, I may be called on to drink poison, and I will do it". No, they are thinking the usual---meetings, service, neutrality etc. This isn't part of their doctrine.
NC
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MrFreeze
@NewChapter " What happened in Jonestown is not happening in the KH. For instance, from the beginning, Jones inserted the idea that they may all have to die for their ideology."
JW's are taught that they may have to die for their religion.
I don't think they would tell JW's to drink Kool-Aid. That would certainly hurt their bottom line. However, if told to do so, I wouldn't be surprised if most did.
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Ding
Remember that Awake cover of JW children whose parents let them die rather than have a blood transfusion?
That was fashioned by the WTS as putting Jehovah first.
I think the GB could do the Kool-Aid thing the same way if they wanted.
Some would balk but I fear that most would drink.
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NewChapter
Well then let me end this conversation this way. LURKERS---I and others do not equate the WT with Jim Jones. I don't believe that you would mindlessly drink poison because it was commanded. I believe that you would see this as highly contradictory to what you have learned about the sanctity of life. Nowhere in any of the literature is it suggested that one day you may have to commit suicide for your faith. This idea would be foreign and sinful to you---and I do believe you would blink. I don't believe you are so clueless or mindless to follow such a mandate. I believe that people that have found themselves in such a position have been worn beyond their breaking point---mentally, physically and spiritually. I believe that degree matters---and WT is not even close to the control exercised in Waco and Jonestown.
NC
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NewChapter
YES Ding---it is well understood that JW's will refuse blood. They have been groomed to do so. It takes constant indoctrination for that kind of devotion. It has been going on for years and generations. Suicide notions HAVE NOT. They are prepared to take a stand against blood. They are not being prepared to commit suicide.
NC