The Hubble, Yahweh, the Bible, and faith.

by Nickolas 269 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  May you all have peace! I first want to say that I actually feared that the thread would go this way - turn into a "you people (believers) are stupid and irrational and need to have your heads checked" fest, in spite of the original (and sincere) questions asked by dear Nick (the greatest of love and peace to you!). If some of you recall, HE asked... and did so as to "sincere people":

  How does one go on believing in Yahweh and the Bible when the evidence against the legitimacy of either is so astonishingly overwhelming and relentless? Is it just cognitive dissonance, or is there something more to it? How is it possible for you to go on believing what you believe?

  Some of us have deigned to respond to Nick, but the fact that so few of us have is merely evidence that others assuredly saw... and feared... what I did... and so refrained. I say this so that some of you don't fool yourselves into thinking more didn't respond because they had no response; they didn't... because they knew what would "come out [of]" you. The usual: rudeness, disdain, even contempt. For those of you who can't see this about yourselves... I WOULD say "Just look in the mirror," but I don't think your own blindness will allow you to do so. Again, for ME, I would rather believe and put my faith in the FSM... than join you in your "holier-than-thou" (and, yes, that IS what it is)... mannerisms. If, due to your understanding of what you [think you] understand... makes you "superior"... HOW, I ask AGAIN... does that make YOU any BETTER than those of, say, the WTBTS... who think THEY'RE "better"... because of what they [think THEY] understand? Same old, same old... just from a different camp, IMHO.

  Now, then, dear Nick, you ask:

  why did God choose to have his showdown with Satan on the planet Earth in our time?

  As dear tec stated (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well, dear one!)... not sure what "showdown" you're speaking of. But I can share with you what my Lord has shared with ME as to why here and now:

  The "here" is because this is the place... in the universe... that He specifically created to hide the seed (of the Woman)... from its enemies in the spirit realm. Why hide them? Because there are those in the spirit realm seeking to destroy them... before they can be fertilized (with God's seed/semen, holy spirit)... and born (again) AS spirit SONS (versus angels/servants). He created a "universe" of physical matter... and made it vast... so that the seed wouldn't be easily found. Unfortunately, one of those He put in charge of protecting the One who protects that seed... a spirit being named Belial (known to you as "Satan" and "Devil")... not only betrayed that seed, and its "Cover"... but the Most Holy One of Israel, Himself.

  We were placed here... in physical vessels... that "hide" the SPIRIT beings that we all are. Since the flesh HIDES what we truly are ON THE INSIDE, Belial and HIS angels... cannot readily tell who's who. So, using their own (others in physical vessels - humans, in general)... they have, starting with Cain... gone "smashing" (killing, maiming) such VESSELS... in order to try and annihilate that seed.

  Now, it's NOT the killing/maiming of the vessel that causes such annihilation - the flesh has sin IN it (in the long garment of skin inherited from Adham) and so gets sick, diseased, ages, dies. No, it is what such killing/maiming CAUSES: ones to answer the challenge made by that Betrayer as he SAID they would: curse God to His FACE. THAT is how one puts themselves in line for annihilation. Satan doesn't want your flesh - the flesh is of NO use, at ALL. He wants your SPIRIT... the man you are ON THE INSIDE (of your body, the physical vessel).

  Unlike the body, which he can "touch" (Job 1:11, 12; 2:5-7)... he CANNOT touch our spirits! That is something we have to GIVE. And we do so... when we turn away from God by CURSING Him... to His face! And when we blaspheme... against His Holy Spirit, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, His Son and Chosen One.

  Why not somewhere else in the universe? Because a tiny planet in a solar system of gazillions of solar systems, in a galaxy among billions of galaxies... is where He felt they would be best hidden. And they were... until the betrayal.

  Why now? Because, due to that betrayal... such seed are no longer safe. First, their enemies now know where they reside... and have come after them. And there is not merely one: there are MANY. Which is why the Father said to the Son, "Sit at my right hand until I place ALL of your ENEMIES under your feet." And why Paul wrote that we have "a wrestling NOT against flesh and blood, but against... wicked spirit forces..." among other things. In addition, at SOME point, ALL of mankind would eventually lose faith... and, given the right circumstances... "curse God." Some here have already met that fulfilled that challenge and prophecy.

  Why so long? Because... all of the seed have not come into existence, yet. All have not been born... in the flesh, yet. Which is the ONLY way to save them: if the one(s) carrying them are killed/die before they can come into the physical world, then they are never born... and so can never be born AGAIN... in the spirit. It really is that simple. They were originally placed in Adham, out from whom was taken Eve... who became the [surrogate] mother "of everyone LIVING." So, these must first come to LIFE.

  Because the Most Holy One of Israel is the God... of the LIVING.

  As for the "showdown" with Satan, I am unaware of any showdown other than the one that resulted in his being cast out of the SPIRIT realm. It was his twin, Michael, the OTHER "protector" of the "Cover"... who battled with him... and prevailed. That event occurred in 30 CE, during the 50 days between my Lord's death... and ascension. Michael is the one who "cleansed" the spirit realm so that my Lord could begin his rule without opposition THERE.

  The only other "showdown" that I'm aware of is between each of US... individually... and Satan... regarding his challenge as to each of US.

  Finally, I am sure you and others want to know if we are alone, if earth is the only place with [physical] life on it in the universe. My understanding is no, we are not. However, although I have asked, I do not hear any further details on this matter, other than it is not something I need to be concerned with at this time... nor does what is occurring with us (both physically and spiritually) related to what is occurring with THEM. My only conclusion right now is that they have they own physical and spiritual matters... and covenant(s) with God. I do not know if they have some kind of relationship with my Lord, the Son... but my feeling is that they do.

  Who knows... perhaps they, too, are seed... hidden wherever THEY are hidden. The physical universe IS vast, after all. But, I don't know. Since I am but a tiny drop in a tiny bucket, however... and have enough trying to keep up with the world I DO live in, both physical AND spirit... I really can't spend too much time mulling over it, if that makes sense.

  I hope this helps, truly. And, as always, the greatest of love and peace! Indeed, peace to you all!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Paulapollos

  Awen,

  I must admit, the issue of the origin of life is always something that has made me think that there is a God. I do wonder whether "God" used evolution. One thing I would ask of you is this though - why?

  Why do you think God would use evolution, rather than direct creation, to evolve man? Was man God's aim all along? Or was this just some experiment, a sort of "Jesus, lets shake it, and see what happens" kind of thing? Genuine questions.

  AGuest, I was just wondering, Your explanation seems to infer that God decided to hide man here, from his own enemies. So....does that mean you think man is not an evolved creature? In other words, God let every other creature evolve, and then "placed" man here, when it suddenly became needed? Also, can I ask you, where are you getting this from? Is this from some part of the Bible I have read, but misunderstood? Again, genuine question.

  PP
• 

  jay88

  Shel, your last post puts science fiction to shame,.....all it needed was Obi-Wan, and a couple of light-sabers,...

  Had my imagination jumping all over the place. Good Work!
• 

  NomadSoul

  How does one go on believing in Yahweh and the Bible when the evidence against the legitimacy of either is so astonishingly overwhelming and relentless?

  That's easy. Just change the concept of the God itself. Just change the interpretation that suits your needs and badda bing badda boom: A NEW INTERPRETATION OF YAHWEH!

  Just read some of the comments.
• 

  PSacramento

  If you read the bible from Ot to NT you will see a "change" in the concept of God ( not in God persay, but in how ancient man understood God).

  It goes from God being with A&E, even walking with them as he did after with Abe, to an allof God on some mountain, to God revealed fully in His son, in the flesh, giving himself for US, giving Us the gift of Grace.

  From a God of love and creation, to one of destruction and war, to a beloved Father and His Son willing to die for Their Love for Us.
• 

  bohm

  Me: do you even understand what independent trials mean, or did you just deside it was okay for you to ignore it?

  Awen: Looks like you did the same thing with my numbers I got from a scientific source.

  Your PLOS ONE article is entirely irrelevant to the point i made and i am surpriced you mention it.

  Awen: For me the Independent Trials theory has no basis as it cannot be tested

  I think its safe to say you dont have the faintest idea what independent trials mean.

  If you want to give an air of having an informed oppinion on a subject as it seem to be the case, you would do well to spend 30 seconds on wikipedia to ensure you are not confusing a technical term from elementary probability theory with a scientific theory.

  An additional 3 minutes on the article on hoyles fallacy would inform you how the number you quote is calculated and therefore why it is trivially (forgive the technical jargon) what statisticians would refer to as "bullshit".

  and just for emphasis: even two plos-one studies on the biodiversity on earth would be irrelevant to any points made above.

  You bohm seem to be quite rude to people who have a differing opinion from yourself. Nickolas on the other hand is quite polite and respectful of other people's opinions. That makes for an easier discourse in my opinion. Your attitude towards persons on this forums reminds me of a certain publishing company that we are all familiar with.

  that must be awfull.
• 

  Giordano

  Nicholas asking our believeing friends if their belief in a god/creator etc. is relevant or large enough after the wonders we have seen through the Hubble will certainly roil their waters. And referencing the early Christian symbol...... like fish they rise to the bait. As a non believer I am not required to fit my scientific knowledge or lack there of into a template of religiosity. Back a few hundred years it was the prudent thing to do, that or become a crispy critter tied to a stake. Ask Giordano Bruno how that worked out for him. Times have changed. Primitive man and then religious believers owned the universe for 6000 years ........well it's not theirs anymore science owns it now. And believers are no longer relevant when it comes to science try as they might..... try as they must. Because some nice and even smart people kissed the sweet lips of delusion and fell madly in love with that delusion carries no weight with science. Belief in a hopeless cause is just that. A new telescope is being prepared and our knowledge of the universe will once again grow with leaps and bounds and our old gods will get smaller.

  "The James Webb Space Telescope (sometimes called JWST) is a large, infrared-optimized space telescope. The project is working to a 2018 launch date. Webb will find the first galaxies that formed in the early Universe, connecting the Big Bang to our own Milky Way Galaxy. Webb will peer through dusty clouds to see stars forming planetary systems, connecting the Milky Way to our own Solar System. Webb's instruments will be designed to work primarily in the infrared range of the electromagnetic spectrum, with some capability in the visible range."http://www.jwst.nasa.gov/
• 

  Band on the Run

  I can believe in God without believing YHWH, the sometime personal god of Israel, is God. Did the universe happen by randomness? I doubt it. Science does throw a monkey wrench in a fundamentalist view of the Bible. I see nothing found from Hubble that contradicts God. Whether it supports God, I don't know.
• 

  Awen

  @ Paulappollos

  "I must admit, the issue of the origin of life is always something that has made me think that there is a God. I do wonder whether "God" used evolution. One thing I would ask of you is this though - why?"

  My opinion on this subject is this: If God were to make creationism unquestionable, without a doubt in our mind then where would that leave Faith? Faith is the cornerstone of religion. There is circumstancial evidence at best for creationism. Evolution has a much better explanation except when it comes to how life originated in the first place. Now stick Creationism into the mix and we see how it could have been accomplished. It can be akin to someone inventing the first automobile, then someone else adds to the original design. Then another and another and another. There are things within the human body that continually amaze us, then there are things that appear to be remnants of former structures that we no longer have (vestigal tail or muscles in our feet similar to what simians have for climbing trees). I would even go so far as to say it's even possible that we were tree climbing simians at one time and God simply chose a certain tribe out of all others to "improve". I mean I really don't know but the similarities to primates is there. We can't simply dismiss evidence because we don't like it.

  Looking into the sky at night I'm awed by all the things I see. I wonder how things are kept together by "natural law" (as we define it). Could it not be kept together by something beyond our comprehension? These things have existed way before we came into existence and will be here long after you and I are dust in the wind and yet we argue constantly over the how and why rather than just accepting there might be some thing beyond our current level of understanding. Scientific theories on the cosmos have come and gone. Today's fact is yesterday's myth.

  Paul did say something that has relevance in this matter.

  1 Corinthians 13:9 "Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!"

  He then stated 1 Corinthians 13:10 "But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used."

  I think eventually all our questions will be answered. For now faith must suffice. I realize that in order to believe I don't need all the answers right now. Sure I would like to have more information, but in reality there is just enough available for a reasonable conclusion to be made IF we do not discount information we happen to not like (creationism).

  @bohm It's not awful. Been there, had it done to me, no biggie. However I can choose to not respond to it. Like Shelby said, a lot of people chose not to respond to this thread because ones such as yourself would come out and attack people's intelligence for holding onto a radical belief. So be it. Doesn't mean I have to or will. I have my own opinion and I've done my own research despite what you may or may not think. Your opinion of me and my intelligence means less than a pile of horse poo I just happened to step into.
• 

  AGuest

  AGuest, I was just wondering, Your explanation seems to infer that God decided to hide man here, from his own enemies.

  Not quite, dear Paulapollos (peace to you!). He didn't hide earthling man here: He created the physical man (Adham) as a vessel to hide the seed. Those he was hiding was not earthling man, but spirit beings... who, like Christ... took on the FORM of earthling man, so as to be hidden from their enemies in the spirit realm. He hid such seed here, in the physical realm. Once their location was betrayed, however, He had to hide them further. That is what the long garment of skin... the vessel of the fleshly body... does: hide the person we are ON THE INSIDE of it.

  So....does that mean you think man is not an evolved creature?

  Man is not an evolved creature.

  In other words, God let every other creature evolve, and then "placed" man here, when it suddenly became needed?

  Not quite. The Most Holy One of Israel created every other KIND of creature... meaning, their family/phylus/genus, etc. It wasn't until after the Flood (which occurred previous to the Sumerians, for those who marvel that the account was known by those, as well)... that the "kinds" began to evolve, as a means to survive and procreate... so that there came to be more and more species.

  Also, can I ask you, where are you getting this from? Is this from some part of the Bible I have read, but misunderstood?

  I received it from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJAH)... but it is in the Bible, as well as other writings. True, the minute details are not necessarily included, but that's because the writers didn't know them at the time. As my Lord said to those during his day in the flesh: "I have many things to tell you... BUT YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO BEAR THEM, YET." Imagine if he had tried to share with them what he shared with John some 60 or so years later! Many more would have left off following him! But apparently, what John was given wasn't the "end" of all revelation or understanding. And I am not alone - apparently, this information has been revealed to someone, even many... over the time since. All have been thought to be... ummmmm... eccentric... some even genius. But most viewed them as crazy or "delusional" or some such thing. No matter to us, though...

  Anyway, it's in the Bible, to a greater or lesser degree. You should perhaps look up words like "vessel"... "seed"... "treasure". I can post some pertinent scriptures and verses for you, if you wish, but you'll have to give me a moment: I have a physical therapy appointment in a couple hours and need to go to that. But I am more than willing to post them later today, if you wish.

  Again, genuine question.

  Of course, dear one! The ridiculers are pretty consistent, so I don't usually get them... or intent... confused any more. Of course, folks will "backslide" from time to time - LOLOLOLOL!

  Shel, your last post puts science fiction to shame,.....all it needed was Obi-Wan, and a couple of light-sabers,... Had my imagination jumping all over the place. Good Work! Jay88

  Glad to have been able to entertain you, dear jay88 (peace to you, too, dear one!). It truly wasn't meant as mere entertainment, dear one, but as a sincere response to dear Nick's (again, the greatest of love and peace to you!) sincere questions, but... I mean, if that's what it was to YOU... so be it!

  Just change the concept of the God itself. Just change the interpretation that suits your needs

  I hope you're not referring to my comments, dear Nomad Soul (peace to you, as well!)... because everything I posted is written. Even in the Bible.

  Nicholas asking our believeing friends if their belief in a god/creator etc. is relevant or large enough after the wonders we have seen through the Hubble will certainly roil their waters. And referencing the early Christian symbol like fish they rise to the bait.

  Interesting comment, Giordano (peace to you, also!), in light of the FACT that as many non-believers (actually, more, in fact) "rose to the bait" here as believers... and the appearance is that the only "waters" that got "roiled" were theirs. The few believers who did respond did so calmy, mildly, sincerely... and respectfully. As we usually do. Again, peace to you all! A slave of Christ, SA