"Forged" by Bart Ehrman

by Dagney 133 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  leavingwt

  Have you read the counters to all those points?

  Please be more specific. Are you challenging the veracity of these claims? Or, are you saying that believers have explanations for why these facts don't bother them?

  The only christianity that I would find invalid would be one that goes against the direct teachings of Christ as we have them ( since all christianity claims to come from those teachings).

  Whether or not a particular denomination follows the direct teachings is merely a matter of human opinion. Surely you consider many denominations to be invalid. Example: Christians who use a Bible text to promote slavery, misogyny or racism.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  In the forward for Misquoting Jesus, and others, I think, he explains how he went from hardcore fundamentalist inerrant Bible believer to not a believer. He is also very clear that his wife is still a believer and that he is not telling anyone not to be a Christian or that their faith is wrong, just that HIS journey took hom to non-belief.

  I will not at ALL deny that he is getting right in face of a lot of the traditional ideas that most of the lay people out there hold about christianity. A lot of the things he writes are opinion. Some of them are the majority scholarly opinion, some aren't, some I think he has pretty thin reasoning on how he reaches conclusions. However, the things that are facts, like the early fractured scene of what christianity looked like, or that there are definitely disconnects in the letters commonly attributed to Paul and WHY they think some of them are forgeries, why, from textualy criticisms, it's almost certain that the gospels were originally written in greek and not by speakers or hebrew or arimaic.
• 

  PSacramento

  Please be more specific. Are you challenging the veracity of these claims? Or, are you saying that believers have explanations for why these facts don't bother them?

  There have been books written to rebut Bart's views, well..not so much counter them but to put them into perspective.

  EX: you mention the 1000 of errors that Bart mentions and his OWN teacher cleared up that "confusion".

  If you have ONE error and that SAME error appears on 500 manuscripts, it is viewed as 500 errors and to quote Bruce Metzger, "there has been NO ERROR shown that can cal into question ANY major Christain Doctrine."

  Whether or not a particular denomination follows the direct teachings is merely a matter of human opinion. Surely you consider many denominations to be invalid. Example: Christians who use a Bible text to promote slavery, misogyny or racism.

  Well, what are we doing NOW? what is Bart doing? Stating a human opinion, yes?

  So yes, I would consider ANY Christian doctrine that go against the direct teachings of Christ to be invalid ( at best questionable).

  To your example:

  Christ openly and clearly states to love and pray for those that presecute you and are your enemies so ANY faith that advocates violence against them is NOT Christian.

  Paul clearly states that ALL are one under Christ. Men, women, slave and free, ALL are the same so anyone advocating racisim and slavery is going against the direct teachings of Paul.

  ( The issue of Paul return a runaway slave is something that should be seen to show that Paul is NOT promoting or advocating slavery but forgivness and accepting of someone that WAS a Slave and is to NOW be like a brother).
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  If you have ONE error and that SAME error appears on 500 manuscripts, it is viewed as 500 errors and to quote Bruce Metzger, "there has been NO ERROR shown that can cal into question ANY major Christain Doctrine."

  Erhman makes that same point in one of his books.

  Christ openly and clearly states to love and pray for those that presecute you and are your enemies so ANY faith that advocates violence against them is NOT Christian.

  Slavery was not in any way considered persecution in the day. The morals are questionable at best. Paul at the same time speaks of women as prophetesses and in a subsequent letter commands they not be allowed to speak. Jesus also said that he came, not the bring peace but a sword.

  Which one of these do we follow? No peace, but pray for your enemies? Women can prophesy but not speak at gatherings? Love those persecuting you but never bother to mention that, oh by the way, owning people as property is persecution?

  I think the point is, there are no originals, there are a LOT of reasons to suspect they may have been parts of oral traditions that changed grossly over time and there is no way to know what Jesus "said".
• 

  leavingwt

  Is it a FACT or an opinion that we DON'T know what the exact words of the original texts are?
• 

  PSacramento

  Erhman makes that same point in one of his books.

  Funny how no one mentiones THAT when mentioning the "1000's of errors".

  Slavery was not in any way considered persecution in the day. The morals are questionable at best. Paul at the same time speaks of women as prophetesses and in a subsequent letter commands they not be allowed to speak. Jesus also said that he came, not the bring peace but a sword.

  The contridiction in Paul is an interesting one, but not a short oen to discuss and you are taking Jesus quote out of context, as I am sure you know and Bart knows too.

  Which one of these do we follow? No peace, but pray for your enemies? Women can prophesy but not speak at gatherings? Love those persecuting you but never bother to mention that, oh by the way, owning people as property is persecution?

  The 1st century followers didn't seem to have too many confusing issues in regards to NOT using violence against their persecuters.

  Paul's much publizied issues with women are blown WAY out of proportion, he openly names some of them by Name in his letter to the Romans and make sit clear they are in high standing in the community there.

  I think the point is, there are no originals, there are a LOT of reasons to suspect they may have been parts of oral traditions that changed grossly over time and there is no way to know what Jesus "said".

  We have more reason the believe the NT documents then quite a bit of historical writings that we give MORE than the benefist of the doubt.

  The issue is that, for people like Bart that used to believe in bible inerrancy, the historical criteria is not good enough for the NT documents and I have to ask, "Why is that?"

  Going back to what William Lane Criag said, " The NT writings do NOT claim to be "from God".
• 

  PSacramento

  Is it a FACT or an opinion that we DON'T know what the exact words of the original texts are?

  You do realize that double edge swrod there, right?

  Not knowing if we have the exact words also means we don't knoe if we DON'T have the exact words and unless soemthing can be shown to be incorrect, why assume that it IS incorrect?

  Personally I don't think we do, BUT we do have the exact meaning as passed down from Christ.
• 

  leavingwt

  PSacramento: I think we've reached the end of the Internet.
• 

  PSacramento

  Thsi thread has got me to thinking about the issue of those that "spoke" For Paul and some of the crap attributed to him ( like the women being quite).

  Some think that Paul, because he was Jewish and women were not allowed to speak in the synagogues, must have said those things, but the context of Romans and how openly Paul mentions women and their promenant role in the church, calls that view into question.

  16 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon a of the church at Cenchreae, 2 so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well.

  3 Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me in Christ Jesus, 4 and who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. 5 Greet also the church in their house. Greet my beloved Epaenetus, who was the first convertb in Asia for Christ. 6 Greet Mary, who has worked very hard among you. 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia,c my relativesd who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. 8 Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. 9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my beloved Stachys. 10 Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the family of Aristobulus. 11 Greet my relativee Herodion. Greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of Narcissus. 12 Greet those workers in the Lord, Tryphaena and Tryphosa. Greet the beloved Persis, who has worked hard in the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord; and greet his mother—a mother to me also. 14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sistersf who are with them. 15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. 16 Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.
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  PSacramento

  PSacramento: I think we've reached the end of the Internet.

  Did we win? did we beat it ??