"Forged" by Bart Ehrman

by Dagney 133 Replies latest jw friends

  • PSacramento

    Just as WE sometimes use and quite "uncanonical" works like 1Enoch, so did the early Christians.

    Canon only became that in the 4th century and it became that because, according to some, it need to became that.

    The books chosen were chosen because they were the MAIN books and letter that were in circulation and accepted at the time.

    Metzger's " The canon of the new Testament" gives an excellent account of why and the process of canonization.

    The books that were left out were NOT viewed as uselss, just as "less useful" then the one included ( although some were outright disregarded even before the canon process begun).

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    What about the Gnostics specifically? I can see not including the Infancy Gospel of Jesus where he slays a playmate during a temper tantrum. The Gnostics seem to recount the same stories and sayings of Jesus but their interpretation is radically different.

    Thanks for the referral to Metzger.

    When I worshipped at the Anglican cathedral in NY, sometimes they would include contemporary works as part of the Lectionary. I recall Thomas Merton, C.S. Lewis, and some others. Even in the boondocks, I was present when worship committee members asked to have poetry from Taize or fictional pieces included in the Lectionary, once a month.

  • Terry

    The books of the canon and the books not of the canon differ in the way authorites allowed or disallowed them.

    What information we have makes several of them untenable, yet, facts can't change the canon. Just like we can't change 607 b.c.e. from being

    the destruction of Jerusalem by applying facts to the reasoning of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    It UNhinges how things fit together.

    Things "fit" a certain way for the Authorities "back in the day". Some things "worked" and other thinks did not.

    Eusebius complained about the quarrels, fights, insults and threats hurled by Early Christians over beliefs. Had they already agreed why would

    it be necessary to officially pronounce certain book ACCEPTABLE?

    The Governing Body in Brooklyn makes official pronouncements and when they are wrong they make special pleading that "we are only human."

    So were those who chose the Canon.

  • Terry

    Unless Ehrman changes the meaning of Forged within the book, he is not in line with other scholars.

    From my understanding, every writer in almost every ancient genre used someone else's name to give his book more status. I would think most people would now it was not written by the stated author. Forged is over the top but the title will sell well.

    Obviously you did NOT watch the video (above) or you would know these points of yours are CLEARLY repudiated.

    Scholars are AFRAID to use a word like "Forged". Instead, they use a juicy technical term instead (knowing few people will look it up.).


        [ soo-d uh - pig -r uh -f uh ] noun ( used with a plural verb ) Origin:
    1685–95; < Neo-Latin < Greek, neuter plural of pseudepíigraphos falsely inscribed, bearing a false title.

    Pseudepigrapha are falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded; a work, simply, "whose real author attributed it to a figure of the past." [1] The word "pseudepigrapha" (from the Greek: ψευδ?ς , pseudes, "false" and ?πιγραφ? , epigraphe, "inscription"; see the related epigraphy) is the plural of "pseudepigraphon" (sometimes Latinized as "pseudepigraphum"); the Anglicized forms "pseudepigraph" and "pseudepigraphs" are also used.

    Few scholars would insist today that the Second Epistle of Peter was written by Saint Peter. [2] Nevertheless, in some cases, especially for books belonging to a religious canon, the question of whether a text is pseudepigraphical or not elicits sensations of loyalty and can become a matter of heavy dispute. The authenticity or value of the work itself, which is a separate question for experienced readers, often becomes sentimentally entangled in the association. Though the inherent value of the text may not be called into question, the weight of a revered or even an apostolic author lends authority to a text.

    Some biblical scholars assert that in antiquity pseudepigraphy was "an accepted and honored custom practiced by students/admirers of a revered figure" [3] , but provide no evidence to back up this statement... wikipedia

  • PSacramento

    Lets be clear about somthing:

    forge verb ( COPY )

    Click to hear the UK pronunciation of this wordClick to hear the US pronunciation of this word /f??d?/ /f??rd?/


    [ T ] to make an illegal copy of something in order to deceive

    Bart may explain his view of "forged" in the book, byt the title speaks volumes for anyone that understand what the word means and implies.

    It's a title that gets publicity and attention.

  • Dagney

    Thank you for posting those links Terry. I never would have thought to look on Youtube. *sigh*

    I am tethered to a desk this morning and am listening to it on my iphone.

  • EntirelyPossible

    Lets be clear about somthing:

    Let's do. Cherry picking will get you called out every time. another definition:

    to imitate (handwriting, a signature, etc.) fraudulently; fabricate a forgery .

  • PSacramento

    I assume you got that from Dictionary.com, the formating always scews up.

    Here is the whole thing:


        [ fawr -j uh -ree , fohr - ] Show IPA

    noun, plural -ger·ies. 1. the crime of falsely making or altering a writing by which thelegal rights or obligations of another person are apparently affected;simulatedsigning of another person's name to any such writing whether or not it is also the forger's name. 2. the production of a spurious work that is claimed to be genuine, as a coin, a painting, or the like. 3. something, as a coin, a work ofart,or a writing, produced by forgery. 4. an act of producing something forged . 5. Archaic . invention; artifice. Bart or his publishers knew that putting the term on the cover would create controversy and controversy sells. The vast majority of people when seeing that term think something bad.

  • Dagney

    @PSac: Have you listened to the audios Terry posted?

    I was going to post something similar to EP, when it comes to dictionary definitions, you can find any combinations of words to support similar meanings of a word. Example: grace or undeserved kindness. Both are definitions found for the same Greek word. Each group uses the one they see fit for their purpose.

    I looked up the verb forge/forged/forgery myself. The intent of the definition you choose is just one of many. Before posting I decided to actually listen to Ehrman's argument for using the word, and he does explain himself.

    The word seems to strike a cord, but he has a fair argument for using the word and explains it in detail.

  • PSacramento

    You are missing the point, it doesn't matter what Bart says the word means or how he is using it.

    The public perception is well know, he KNOWS that as does his publishing company.

    If I was to write a book and title it: Evolution evidence: FORGED !

    What would you or anyone else think the title meant?

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