"Who created the intelligent creator?"

by mankkeli 49 Replies latest jw friends

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  botchtowersociety

  Potential?

  Some ideas apply "infinite potential" to God.

  With Christians, there is no logical conclusion because their explanation is that the intelligent creator NEVER had a beginning.

  Those that are arguing infinite regression are the ones that are illogical, imho.

  There had to be a first thing, an uncaused cause. There can be no such thing as infinite regression. It is like a flat earther saying it is "turtles all the way down." To get to the current point in time, you would have to traverse an infinite number of points of time. Since every natural thing has a cause, to get to the current state of the Universe, you would have to traverse an infinite chain of linked events.

  You cannot traverse an actual infinity. It is a logical impossibility. This goes all the way back to Aristotle. There had to be a beginning of the series, no matter what you want to call it. There had to be a first thing, an uncaused cause, that is not like any other thing that follows, since everything natural is caused.
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  Diest

  Sac-town. Why would the universe need a beginning, maybe the big crush theory is right. The universe expands then contracts and goes back into itself. They cycle continues.

  I don’t think saying a creator is the only possibility makes any more sense than there was a beginning with a universe. Either way I have to believe that the creator or the universe always existed.

  Personally I lean toward a less definable higher power, but that is mostly intuition. I don’t think anyone can now, or will know. If there is a good I don’t think he talks to us, and you can't prove there is one.
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  botchtowersociety

  Why would the universe need a beginning, maybe the big crush theory is right. The universe expands then contracts and goes back into itself. They cycle continues.

  But this runs afoul of the infinite regression problem. There would have to be a finite number of cycles to reach the current one. There would still have to be a first cycle. Check my last post for why.
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  unshackled

  I've never really understood invoking a Creator or God by saying the universe couldn't come from nothing or always existed. Only to then turn around and say God came from nothing and always existed. That is just calling the unknown a different name.

  “In many cultures it is customary to answer that God created the universe out of nothing. But this is mere temporizing. If we wish courageously to pursue the question, we must of course ask next where God comes from. And if we decided this to be unanswerable, why not save a step and decide that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we say that God has always existed, why not save a step and conclude that the universe has always existed.” – Carl Sagan
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  Sam Whiskey

  Why are some so enamoured with the need to disprove a Creator? I rarely see Christians so wrapped up with trying to disprove Atheism....

  Basically, threads like this are created because the creator is soo confused about His or Her origin of life. Let's face it, if there is no God, then there is no sense of right or wrong, there is no to answer to. They want that freedom to NOT have to answer to anyone or any thing.
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  Diest

  Looks like Caral Sagan said what I was thinking....just 1000 time better. Either way an all powerful being always existed, or and all powerful singularity existed...you have to have faith at some point. At least the singularity doesnt care if I have sex out of wedlock.
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  Diest

  @Sam Even if I don’t have to answer to a higher power I still have to answer to those around me. There is a great sense of right or wrong without god.

  Why was my atheist friend fired for whistle blowing on her evangelical boss's fraud?

  Satan didn’t mislead him and God didn’t tell her what is right. She did what is right because she knows what is right. We all have the power of thought. If the only reason you are not stealing, or killing is because you think you will be punished by some God then what kind of person are you?

  I don’t steal, because I would not want it done to me. That is not the golden rule that 'jesus' came up with. It was stated long before him and will be stated long after him.

  If people are so weak that they need the thought of 'god' to make them behave, and not their own brainpower, then I don’t want them around. I want people to be good because they know it is right, and they want to be treated fairly.
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  journey-on

  We do not know what consciousness is. Science has never been able to fully understand exactly how it started and so the explanations of how it originated are all over the place. There are scientific arguments about what consciousness is exactly and whether all consciousness is self-contained in the brain or whether some or all of it is retrieved from some subtle field outside the brain.

  What if the divine creator is no thing....just pure consciousness vibrating at infinite frequency. Science tells us that all matter is just stuff vibrating at its own unique frequency. The slower the frequency, the denser the matter. Is it possible that everything is just a step-down of a part of that consciousness? Perhaps when self-awareness first manifested as I AM, a new form split off and a new vibrational frequency began. When that I AM desired to know itself, another step-down transformation emerged....and on and on. The original Pure Consciousness remained, but through the I AM vibration, all other creation came into being.

  I enjoy reading things that attempt to pull God and Science together. The one thing we can do now as non-JWs is speculate. Some don't care to do that, saying it's impossible to know, why bother? Others continue to search like it's hidden treasure to be found.
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  THE GLADIATOR

  Sam Whiskey 'Why are some so enamoured with the need to disprove a Creator? I rarely see Christians so wrapped up with trying to disprove Atheism....'

  Perhaps you need to check out a few more posts. There is a huge pro Christian influence on this board. Nothing wrong with that and it creates a balance.

  'Let’s face it, if there is no God, then there is no sense of right or wrong…'

  Are you sure about that?
• 

  cofty

  Let's face it, if there is no God, then there is no sense of right or wrong, there is no to answer to. They want that freedom to NOT have to answer to anyone or any thing. - Sam Whiskey

  If there is a god and if the bible is a true account of her ethics then we must say that genocide, rape, kidnapping, slavery and infanticide are to judged as ethically good, at least under some circumstances.

  There are sound naturalistic foundations of ethics.