religion only to do with belief?

by Curtains 48 Replies latest jw friends

  • Concerned JW
    Concerned JW

    Forgive me Curtains If you felt I was demeaning. I find the Bible very deep and needs a lot study. In many ways you and I agree especially with looking at the greek interlinear for clarification.

    Ministry isn't a ritual it is work/a job for witnesses since it is simply viewed as spiritual work for Jehovah and his son Jesus. Work however repetitve has definite goals. For witnesses "first call" (where witnesses knock on doors) is only a small part of the ministry which includes return visits, bible studies with the interested persons, informal witnessing, street witnessing it is all geared towards spreading God's word and seeking interested ones.

    Evangelising with the goal of finding interested people has never been classed as a ritual for any religion. I see a lot of Atheists now evangelising for their belief.

    The problem with godrulz explanation of "speaking in tongues" is that it is read into the bible and the scriptures that directly contradadict that viewpoint are ignored Acts 2:11. I can see how Pentacostals came to their particular belief on "tongues" by carefully proof texting certain scriptures and taking them out of there biblical context/explanation and using them as stand alone scriptures.

    Are "tongues" unintelligible words that only God can understand? no in Acts 2 the only event describing "tongues" shown in action. They are shown to be in the known languages of the people visiting Jerusalem and the people understood what was being said to them. That is the boundary that any understanding about "tongues" has to be set within. You can't then contradict this or ignore it for your own exegesis.

    The diversity of "Tongues" understanding and usage within the pentacostal church itself shows a lack of constancy and correctness in their understanding on the subject.

    Why would any bible-based religion want to keep the mystery? For me that is a sign of fakery and manipulation. By comparison Witnesses are found to be very blunt and straight forward. Our meetings completely lacking the elaborate rituals and shows, stimulating loud music. all designed to manipulate emotions and senses. I think pentacostals among other charasmatic groups are very much geared towards this type of stimulation for the audience. In that sort of atmosphere people are very susceptable to suggestion.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    concerned jw

    Ministry isn't a ritual it is work/a job for witnesses since it is simply viewed as spiritual work for Jehovah and his son Jesus. Work however repetitve has definite goals. For witnesses "first call" (where witnesses knock on doors) is only a small part of the ministry which includes return visits, bible studies with the interested persons, informal witnessing, street witnessing it is all geared towards spreading God's word and seeking interested ones.

    Evangelising with the goal of finding interested people has never been classed as a ritual for any religion. I see a lot of Atheists now evangelising for their belief.

    I am paying Jehovahs witnesses a compliment when I suggest that the door to door ministry is a ritual. Jehovahs witnesses even call it sacred service. So when I meet or see JWs doing their door to door work I don't think "bloody hell there they are at it again, carrying out their pointless activity" anymore. Contextualizing your ministry as ritual helps me maintain respect for you guys.

    It is also helpful for me to see my JW activites as ritual - when I do this I don't feel resentful or bitter that I have spent so much of life engaged in these activities. I mean this sincerely and seeing it this way has had a profoundly affirmative effect upon me - akin to a revelation.

    I don't think evangelizing in general falls into the category of ritual as it is often done on an adhoc basis.

    edit: regarding your points about tongues - you have a lot of support from the cessationist argument

    pentecostals have lots of support from the continuance argument.

    At the moment I think the continuance argument is stronger. Acts 2, which I have just read again seems to me to support the continuance argument more than the cessation argument. Please see verse 13 "they are full of sweet wine".

    A helpful way to understand verse 11 if you were trying to understand the continuance argument would be to consider the "speaking in tongues" as a form of music. Music is understandable in all languages. I think this is a good analogy as verse 11 indicates that what the apostles were uttering was praise to God. However you are welcome to disagree - I have no problem. live and let live

  • Concerned JW
    Concerned JW

    For me the ministry is hard but much needed work. I am always wary of letting myself feel too self-justified simply by the action of being on the ministry. I would then be focussing too much on the act and not enough on the people that need searching out. It is a life-saving work for those who listen to God's word and so I fall into following paul's thought "woe is me" if I didn't do it.

    Yes verse 11 is interesting. People thought they were drinking to much wine basically but what happens to someone when they start drinking? Usually they get excited, red-faced, full-on, Their speech increases in volume and they speak loads. The scripture isn't saying they are falling down drunk and thats the point. We know from the earlier scripture people could understand them and in their own language too. This does clarify the effect of the spirit not to stupify their words but to make them more verbal and excited.

    You do something different to me when you examine scripture. You seem to have lists for each hypothesis and put scriptures that seemingly fit in each list and then decide which one is more worthy from that.

    For me though You have to look at what are the definite points on a subject that define it and fit the rest harmoniously around them. Rather than scoring points under different hypothesis.

    The scripture say "tongues cease" that is non-negotiable! The question is only when? The relevence of Paul saying "remains" show it is before perfection and that he felt we needed know they cease also supports this. The relevence of the gifts not showing up throughout the centuries since then really puts the lid on it.

  • Rocky_Girl
    Rocky_Girl

    Hi Curtains: I would love to read the piece by Graham Harvey and I do have access to EBSCOHost. I was unable to find anything called "Myth a Religious Studies Approach" or anything similar attributed to Graham Harvey. Could it be a portion of another work?

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    Depends on the person. Some join a religion for the socializing, some for being involved in charity and community. Some out of belief and some out of tradition, family expectation, social pressure...probably more I haven't thought of.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    rocky_girl

    are you in the UK? and do you have access to EBSCOhost via a teaching body? If so your access may be restricted to the subject you are studying. I find this in my own case.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    here is a link to Graham Harvey but not specifically that particular article.

    http://www.grahamharvey.org/

    disclaimer: my conclusions on this thread are my own extrapolations from Graham Harvey's article in my attempts to make sense of my Jehovahs witness background and my situation - meaning that you may come to a different conclusion.

  • Rocky_Girl
    Rocky_Girl

    I am in the US and I have a general access to EBSCOHost that is shared by all RMC students of all disciplines. We have a religious thought/history program so it is odd that it doesn't pop up. I will check out his site.

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    rocky_girl, in checking I now realize why the article may not be accessible to you. It is indeed part of something else and I have access because I am considering studying the second course (A330). It looks very interesting and I might go for it.

    http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/postgraduate/course/a880.htm

    http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/course/a330.htm

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