religion only to do with belief? (page 2)

Curtains

rocky-girl,

I am testing a hypothesis.

rocky-girl: If you are going to make a sweeping statement about what religion is based on, you should research more than one sect of one branch of one religion

sweeping statements? - where? I'm particularly interested in pentecostalism because I have been following godrulz' reasoning and holding it up to what i vaguely know of the religion. Initially I was actually going to test catholicism as I am more familiar with that and JWs condemn them a lot.

There is a large group of "believers" who are not well versed in what their religion teaches, yet feel attached by the way of life that is connected to that religion

my hypothesis in part addresses that this is perhaps what religion is about - lifestyle rather than beliefs. However not just lifestyle but performance as well

rocky-girl: Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't case studies supposed to provide all of the information about a certain situation and allow the person/people reading the study to come to a conclusion based on the information?

no

rocky-girl: If you are researching and writing a paper to prove a point, then you are writing an essay or thesis. So, are you writing a case study, or an essay or thesis of some sort?

neither

rocky-girl: Only high control, fundamental religions are so obsessed with their followers accepting every doctrine and belief.

Hmm - Some academic disciplines are like this too. some commercial organisations too, political ones too. I'm trying to put religion on a plane with other fields of human activity where they were before the enlightenment separated them into a tight little corner and investigate my question from a much broader perspective and hope to elucidate what holds many JWs in even when their beliefs have broken down.

Curtains

I'm grappling with your reply concerned JW

taking another look at 1cor:13 and finding a reply very complicated. but will reply after cooking and eating my evening meal.

thanks leavingwt - you have also raised some interesting issues that I will need time to think about.

Rocky_Girl

sweeping statements? - where? I'm particularly interested in pentecostalism because I have been following godrulz' reasoning and holding it up to what i vaguely know of the religion. Initially I was actually going to test catholicism as I am more familiar with that and JWs condemn them a lot.

If you are only researching pentecoastals, then you cannot generalize with the word "religion." The sweeping statement is that "religion" is - ether based on belief alone or not - when you are basing research on just one religion.

You do know that godrulz was never a JW, correct?

my hypothesis in part addresses that this is perhaps what religion is about - lifestyle rather than beliefs.

My statement was my answer to your question - based on religion in general. I have no knowledge of the pentecostal faith. I misunderstood your premise; I thought you were trying to make a statement about religion, not just one specific religion.

re: case studies - I was under the impression from your second post that you were writing a case study, my mistake

Hmm - Some academic disciplines are like this too. some commercial organisations too, political ones too. I'm trying to put religion on a plane with other fields of human activity where they were before the enlightenment separated them into a tight little corner and investigate my question from a much broader perspective and hope to elucidate what holds many JWs in even when their beliefs have broken down.

I've always held that religion and politics are more alike than not.

What will observations of JWs tell you about pentecostals?

Curtains

you have an inquiring mind rocky-girl .

let me explain a little further. I was reading a paper by Graham Harvey entitled "Myth a Religious Studies Approach". This paper is not available online unless you have access to ebscohost. I did not want to use the work myth here in my title on this site because most here are biased against myth. (Mind you the author of the paper does sometimes equate myth with religion). At the same time Pentecostalism caught my eye and I wanted to test the author's claims by using that religion as a test case. I already think that to ordinary Jehovahs witnesses performance is just as important as belief. For example they are very aware of being a theatrical spectacle to the world and also under God's and the angels' scrutiny. Once JWs leave they experience a double whammy - loss of belief and loss of action - a deadly limbo. And it is this latter that I wish to reclaim.

NewChapter

Curtains, I've sat in on some Pentecostal bible studies. They really seemed to be full believers very interested in doctrine. They viewed speaking in tongues as a manifestation of holy spirit in their life, and they believed this gave them POWER. In other words, it wasn't a momentary experience, but sort of like charging a car battery. does that make sense. Also I used to clean houses and here is what I found in one Pentecostal house:

The boy was around 10-years-old and he had his chores listed on a poster board in his room. Here is what he was to do each day.

Morning before school.

Read bible 5 minutes

pray 5 minutes

pray in tongues 5 minutes

After school

Chores and homework

read bible 15 minutes

pray 15 minutes

pray in tongues 15 minutes.

Clearly this tongue thing is very important to their entire belief. If you separated it for them, their beliefs would crumble. They also wove that power of the spirit into the fabric of their day. For instance one teenager told a story of how he and friends were driving at night and got lost. He figured out that a demon of confusion has invaded the car. So with the power of holy spirit and in Jesus' name he cast the demon out. They found their way then. Cheaper than a TOM TOM!

N

NewChapter

Curtains, I've sat in on some Pentecostal bible studies. They really seemed to be full believers very interested in doctrine. They viewed speaking in tongues as a manifestation of holy spirit in their life, and they believed this gave them POWER. In other words, it wasn't a momentary experience, but sort of like charging a car battery. does that make sense. Also I used to clean houses and here is what I found in one Pentecostal house:

The boy was around 10-years-old and he had his chores listed on a poster board in his room. Here is what he was to do each day.

Morning before school.

Read bible 5 minutes

pray 5 minutes

pray in tongues 5 minutes

After school

Chores and homework

read bible 15 minutes

pray 15 minutes

pray in tongues 15 minutes.

Clearly this tongue thing is very important to their entire belief. If you separated it for them, their beliefs would crumble. They also wove that power of the spirit into the fabric of their day. For instance one teenager told a story of how he and friends were driving at night and got lost. He figured out that a demon of confusion has invaded the car. So with the power of holy spirit and in Jesus' name he cast the demon out. They found their way then. Cheaper than a TOM TOM!

N

Curtains

concerned JW

All forms of belief have structure and certain boundaries. It could be argued that Atheism is a form of social religion which looks to people such as Richard Dawkins as spiritual leaders for guidance.

I think we need to make a distinction between dogma and creed which imo lead to closed systems of thought. In this system a human organisation/leader has the final say. Richard Dawkins encourages a scientifc approach. I've read some of his books and this comes accross clearly. But what you say about social religion is true. People very often have a strong desire to be led, to be secure and indeed look to people such as Richard Dawkins for spiritual guidance and in doing so anaesthetize themselves.

concerned JW: A lot of Religions have grown from philosophical origins like buddhism, Taoism that have added spiritual practises to their beliefs and come to worship their originators.

Now this is what I am contesting. I rather think that practice came first then formulations of explanations in the form of stories that were enacted rather than taught as beliefs per se. But modernity came to focus on belief and improvement by means of belief. we need to reverse this imo

concerned JW: Jews, Christians and Muslims all have roots from the Bible and claim their main beliefs originate with the bible. That being said you have noticed as with Pentacostals that some of their practises are drawn from outside the bible. Like having a lively spectacle based religion that are designed to be very popular and entertaining.

Yes. In fact the bible is full of lively spectacle - the sacrifices and festivals in the OT, vivid prophecies that were often enacted. Gifts of the spirit in the NT, huge outpourings of love and faith etc. but the enlightenment has misdirected us towards focusing us on beliefs - so I agree with you

please excuse all the bold - I don't know waht happened

Curtains

omg NC that is awful.

Curtains

phew concerned JW you forced me to think. okay now finished editing my reply to you.

godrulz

Paul was strong on right belief/doctrine (orthodoxy) and right practice (orthopraxy). Often his letters were half doctrinal followed by half practical application. Head and heart, huh? Not to be paranoid (looks over shoulder), but is this on topic? Not too preachy (I did not mention the J-word)? Offensive? Politically correct? Did I offend any gays?

Funny story about scheduling tongues and using it for GPS?! Many people attending Pentecostal churches don't speak in tongues (not a good thing to be Pent. in name, but not in experience). Early Pentecostals were more experiential vs doctrinal. This led to heresies (New Rain, Oneness, etc.) coming in and causing confusion, division. Pentecostal scholarship has now caught up almost to the point of being more doctrinal and not enough experiential (does not help to know about healing and gifts if we never experience their reality). Society for Pentecostal Studies (this academic group has journals, etc. and even includes input from Charismatic Catholics, UPC oneness heretics, etc.; Holy Spirit unity is foreign to cultic uniformity, but not to Scripture).

I hope people realize it is not possible to stereotype a Pentecostal by youtube or Benny Hinn. It is probably easier to stereotype a JW or Mormon or Muslim.

religion only to do with belief?

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