this is my question, and it fits well with the topic of a tax revolution against the "rich"
so, don't quote me the law, tell me what these revolution people want from us?
So you are counting yourself among the rich?
DEAR RICH FOLKS: Get Ready For A (Tax) Revolution...
by darthfader 88 Replies latest social current
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Berengaria
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Berengaria
Effective rates on the top have never been 70-90% in this country. Ever. (those may have been the statutory rates, but hardly anyone paid them, including millionaires, the effective rates were close to those paid under Bush or Clinton).
LOL, and what are they now? 17%? Semantics. The point is that we were productive and prosperous when taxes were higher, and the rich still got rich.
Also, regardless what the marginal rates may have been, the total income tax collected has always hovered around 19% (reference Hauser's rule), so history does not show that higher marginal rates lead to higher collections.
19% of GDP. Here's another question. You like to point to the top paying the lion's share of taxes, but you neglect to point out that they now hold the majority of the wealth. So if our taxes have always been close to 19% of GDP, how was that previously spread among the percentiles?
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DaCheech
you know why these subjects irqs me the most???
you guys just happen to start such a topic, about something that's happening right now.
this last week (15th) was 2nd quarter for tax season.
so while you haters line up at your return center on march/april and get your fat return for not contributing much at all, I'm paying $8,000 or so to the goverment.
this last week, I just gave the goverment $4,000............. I just gave NJ another $800........... and had to make sure I did not spend my customer's sales tax, so I could forward it to the state in timely manner with the proper paperwork.
rich people don't pay enough? ha ha ha?
we also pay, in higher property taxes, and sales tax on more expensive purchases!
how about diesel tax? businesses don't have diesel rigs on the road?
so, when I complain to my accountant........... and he tells me to lease a new mercedes or buy a couple of laptops/ipads to write off..... do you blame us? I would rather write the check to Apple/Mercedes than give it to people who don't appreciate all the taxes we are paying for their lives.
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NewChapter
I appreciate it DaCheech. I really do. I even appreciate it when you choose to consume instead of paying taxes, because both actions help all of us. My brother is in a similiar situation. He pays thousands for his taxes, along with half his employee's employment tax. But somehow he still sees the bigger picture. Maybe because his business is infrastructure--he is paid with tax dollars and passes that on to his workers. He still manages to be a pretty staunch liberal and democrat. I asked him how he was able to continue with his political views. He said not everybody is as strong as he is. Part of the price of living here is realizing that capitalism leaves some behind. He knows so many people that benefit from government social programs, and they are often the same people that speak against them. It baffles him that in the pursuit of profit we would leave others behind. He pays for his employees health insurance, dental insurance, and vision. He believes in what he does. He makes a lot of money. He has every reason to be a Republican. But ideologically it doesn't sit well with him. He lost his leg 10 years ago, and he realizes he is only one infection away from needing services. He respects that and pays his tax bills willingly.
This is a very healthy and motivated man, but he has nothing but difficulty trying to get health insurance. Because he is an amputee. He has employees of different ages, and struggles constantly paying premiiums for his older workers. He realizes this system is broken and supports the government taking a more active role in the health care crisis. He has seen first hand how this broken, profit driven system works. He sees me struggle with the knowledge that I will never be able to buy health insurance on the open market. This worries him a great deal. He can't personally pay for my health care. But I guess it's his unique ability to look around and see things through the eyes of those that struggle. He doesn't automatically chalk everything up to something being deficient in the person in need. He sees this cold system and realizes that even strong and motivated people sometimes get left behind.
He believes in this country and loves it. He doesn't want it to be a country that shoots it's wounded. Because that would make us NOT great in his eyes. His enjoyment of life is enriched by knowing people are taken care of when they need it. It is not enriched by knowing seniors have been given vouchers to buy health insurance on the same market that regularly denies him because of an injury.
We can argue economics and politics all we want. The divide is ideological. One side just can't bring themselves to run over the weak with a capitalistic steam roller. The other side feels that the burden of supporting services is unfair and impedes on their pursuit of happiness. The struggle will continue.
NC
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botchtowersociety
LOL, and what are they now? 17%? Semantics. The point is that we were productive and prosperous when taxes were higher, and the rich still got rich.
It isn't semantics. Those statutory rates were not actual effective collection rates. To say that extracting 90% from upper incomes was a fact in the past, as your post implies, is inaccurate, and maybe dishonest (if you aren't ignorant).
19% of GDP. Here's another question. You like to point to the top paying the lion's share of taxes, but you neglect to point out that they now hold the majority of the wealth. So if our taxes have always been close to 19% of GDP, how was that previously spread among the percentiles?
If that is your issue, you have to attack the source of the problem.
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SixofNine
Hey I know a 100% legal way to sheild 100% of any given amount of money from taxes - and no depreciating it over several years either.
Use it to hire someone.
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Berengaria
Right on Six!! Exactly why the higher rates work.
Those statutory rates were not actual effective collection rates. To say that extracting 90% from upper incomes was a fact in the past, as your post implies, is inaccurate, and maybe dishonest (if you aren't ignorant).
I didn't imply any such thing. I didn't even say that. I said when rates were 70-90%. If collection is always in the 40-50% range of that rate, it stands to reason we collect more if the rate is higher. You're being really ridiculous here. And Six has hit the nail on the head. The best tax shelter is the business itself.
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botchtowersociety
Hey I know a 100% legal way to sheild 100% of any given amount of money from taxes - and no depreciating it over several years either.
Use it to hire someone.
Off of a conference call for Wynn Resorts yesterday (NASDAQ:WYNN), comments by the Democrat CEO and Chairman of the Board Stephen Wynn in response to why he isn't expanding operations in Las Vegas:
Stephen Wynn
Well, here's our problem.
There are a host of opportunities for expansion in Las Vegas, a host of opportunities to create tens of thousands of jobs in Las Vegas. I know that I could do 10,000 more myself and according to the Chamber of Commerce and the Visitors Convention Bureau, if we hired 10,000 employees, it would create another 20,000 additional jobs for a grand total of 30,000. I believe in Las Vegas. I think its best days are ahead of it. But I'm afraid to do anything in the current political environment in the United States.
You watch television and see what's going on, on this debt ceiling issue. And what I consider to be a total lack of leadership from the President and nothing's going to get fixed until the President himself steps up and wrangles both parties in Congress. But everybody is so political, so focused on holding their job for the next year that the discussion in Washington is nauseating. And I'm saying it bluntly, that this administration is the greatest wet blanket to business, and progress and job creation in my lifetime. And I can prove it and I could spend the next 3 hours giving you examples of all of us in this market place that are frightened to death about all the new regulations, our healthcare costs escalate, regulations coming from left and right. A President that seems -- that keeps using that word redistribution.
Well, my customers and the companies that provide the vitality for the hospitality and restaurant industry, in the United States of America, they are frightened of this administration. And it makes you slow down and not invest your money. Everybody complains about how much money is on the side in America. You bet. And until we change the tempo and the conversation from Washington, it's not going to change. And those of us who have business opportunities and the capital to do it are going to sit in fear of the President.
And a lot of people don't want to say that. They'll say, "Oh God, don't be attacking Obama." Well, this is Obama's deal, and it's Obama that's responsible for this fear in America. The guy keeps making speeches about redistribution, and maybe we ought to do something to businesses that don't invest or holding too much money. We haven't heard that kind of talk except from pure socialists. Everybody's afraid of the government, and there's no need to soft peddling it, it's the truth.It is the truth.
And that's true of Democratic businessman and Republican businessman, and I am a Democratic businessman and I support Harry Reid. I support Democrats and Republicans. And I'm telling you that the business community in this company is frightened to death of the weird political philosophy of the President of the United States. And until he's gone, everybody's going to be sitting on their thumbs.....
....And incidentally, I'm going to stay on this point for another minute. If the government -- if the administration in Washington isn't frightening the dickens out of those of us who create jobs and build buildings and make lives for their employees, they are attacking China where, in the case of my company, the vitality of capital to improve Las Vegas has come from. It's the double whammy.American companies that have ventured abroad to broaden their markets are bringing money, have reinvested much of that in America. And so the rhetoric about offshore capital, there'd be a lot more of it brought back here if the government did intelligent and encouraging things to bring capital back.But this is a very business, job creating, unfriendly administration, and that's the plain truth of it. And so you know when you want to build condominiums, why? You want to protect yourself in this environment. Everybody's in a defensive crouch, except for Jim [indiscernible], who is sort of a Judas goat.
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botchtowersociety
Looks like my last post drew crickets. Want to create jobs? Get rid of Obama next year, and put someone in his place that understands and supports the free market economy. When that happens, the jobs will start to come back.
In IBD yesterday, the co-founder of Home Depot. His comments mirror those of the CEO of Wynn Resorts.
IBD: What's the single biggest impediment to job growth today?
Marcus: The U.S. government. Having built a small business into a big one, I can tell you that today the impediments that the government imposes are impossible to deal with. Home Depot would never have succeeded if we'd tried to start it today. Every day you see rules and regulations from a group of Washington bureaucrats who know nothing about running a business. And I mean every day. It's become stifling.
If you're a small businessman, the only way to deal with it is to work harder, put in more hours, and let people go. When you consider that something like 70% of the American people work for small businesses, you are talking about a big economic impact.
IBD: President Obama has promised to streamline and eliminate regulations. What's your take?
Marcus: His speeches are wonderful. His output is absolutely, incredibly bad. As he speaks about cutting out regulations, they are now producing thousands of pages of new ones. With just ObamaCare by itself, you have a 2,000 page bill that's probably going end up being 150,000 pages of regulations.
IBD: Washington has been consumed with debt talks. Is this the right focus now?
Marcus: They are all tied together. If we don't lower spending and if we don't deal with paying down the debt, we are going to have to raise taxes. Even brain-dead economists understand that when you raise taxes, you cost jobs.
IBD: If you could sit down with Obama and talk to him about job creation, what would you say?
Marcus: I'm not sure Obama would understand anything that I'd say, because he's never really worked a day outside the political or legal area. He doesn't know how to make a payroll, he doesn't understand the problems businesses face. I would try to explain that the plight of the businessman is very reactive to Washington. As Washington piles on regulations and mandates, the impact is tremendous. I don't think he's a bad guy. I just think he has no knowledge of this.
IBD: Why don't more businesses speak out?
Marcus: They are frightened to death — frightened that they will have the IRS or SEC on them. In my 50 years in business, I have never seen executives of major companies who were more intimidated by an administration.
IBD: What's your message to the business community?
Marcus: It's time to stand up and fight. These people in Washington are out there making your life difficult, and many of you won't survive. Why aren't you doing something about it? The free enterprise system made this country what it is today, and we've got to keep it alive. We are on the edge of the abyss.
At the Job Creators Alliance, we're trying to recruit people who are willing to step up and say: " I've had it. There's no one representing me. I want to be out there and fight."