Youngest person disfellowshipped -- ever?

by FatFreek 2005 66 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • AwareBeing

    If their getting baptized, they've been in FS. The ministry that Jesus taught were 30 something adult leaders in the faith.

    But, not mothers, children, or immature adults that fecal the need to prove themselves worthy to a "religion"!

    Its just an other example of the WT's using young, or anyone for its own glory and advantage.

    And, doing so regardless of the harm caused to children, or other disadvantaged adults.

  • ambersun

    How can JW parents who claim to love their children allow them to be baptized so young knowing full well they can now be removed from the congregation for doing what normal teenagers do?

    Many JW parents convince themselves that baptism will somehow provide a protection for their child and keep them safe from harm. They literally breathe a sigh of relief when they see their child coming out of the baptism pool, thinking that they are now safe and secure forever within Jehovah's organisation. After all, Armageddon is coming any day and they will soon be living in the New System!! At that particular moment in time any thoughts of disfellowshipping and shunning couldn't be further from their minds. They could not even contemplate their beloved child behaving like an average "worldly" child and doing anything that could possibly lead to them being disfellowshipped. When the baptised child reaches his/her teens and starts behaving like any normal teenager it all comes as a huge shock when they end up in front of the elders!

    Likewise, when teenagers show a healthy interest in the opposite sex, many JW parents feel it is best to get them married off young as a "protection" against fornication. Once again, they think they are keeping them safe as Armageddon is so very close, and are unable to see the potential harm they are doing to them.

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    So far, we've seen on this thread that the youngest known Jehovah's Witness baptism was for a 6-year-old. Fact is, the WT Lib CD turns up no less than 2 instances of children this young (see page 1). It makes one wonder how the Society feels about infant baptism. What's the difference, I mean, besides some enormous spread of 5 1/2 years. Here's what they said recently:

    Adequate Preparation for BaptismAre children in a position to make an intelligent dedication? The Scriptures give no age requirements for baptism. Still, infants certainly could not become believers, exercise faith, or make a dedication to God. (Acts 8:12) Regarding first-century Christians, historian Augustus Neander states in his book General History of the Christian Religion and Church: "Baptism was administered at first only to adults, as men were accustomed to conceive baptism and faith as strictly connected." The Watchtower, 2006, 4/1 pp. 27-28

    Note how they argue their point, contrasting the baptism of infants with baptism of adults and quoting a worldly historian as an authority.

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    More food for thought. This, from Watchtower:

    "If the father or the mother of a family is a believing and practicing Christian he or she brings merit to the entire family of children. Paul writes: "For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy." (1 Cor. 7:14, NW) Therefore this proves that minor children of Christian parents are indirectly sanctified or counted worthy of protection in God’s sight until they reach the age of individual responsibility. Hence in this day of final judgment since 1918 parents are responsible for the final destiny of their minor children. When Armageddon strikes all minor children who are not under such "family merit" arrangement will meet annihilation with no hope of a resurrection." The Watchtower, 1952, 1/15 p. 43 par. 22 Training Children for Life in the New World

    While the above is not a recent Watchtower statement, it has (to the best of my knowledge) not been superceded by any of their so-called "new light". Here, the unbelieving mate -- obviously an adult by any definition -- is somehow protected simply because he or she is married to a believer. The minor children, too, logically fall under this same protection when Armageddon comes. Makes sense to me.

    Definition of a minor child varies slightly depending upon where the child resides. From Wikipedia, "In the United States, where the age of majority is set by the individual states, minor usually refers to someone under the age of 18, but can be used in certain areas (such as gambling, gun ownership and the consuming of alcohol) to define someone under the age of 21."

    Knowing this, why is it that Watchtower has inexplicably encouraged earlier and earlier baptisms for children when they've told their flock that minor children have the same protection as that of an unbelieving spouse?


  • NewChapter

    They don't recognize changing humans laws about age of consent. I think they go by some vague "age of reason" which according to them differs from child to child. Also I think the above is still the teaching about unbaptized children. However with the spouse thing, there seemed to be a lot of uncertainty. There was always a question (at least among the JW's I knew) and it was to be left in Jehovah's hands.


  • sinis

    Nicotine is actually good for you. So if you chew the gum for medical enhancement they will DF you. Where is the logic in that??? How can you defile your body from nicotine when other "drugs" such as caffeine are close mimickers???? Makes no sense at all... I luvs the snus... :)

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    It doesn't ever do to overthink the Witnesses. Caesar, our state governments, have decided a majority age of 18 or 21, before a person can do many things. These items include sex, contracts, purchase of alcohol or tobacco. Society has deemed and recent scientific research proves the old axiom that teenagers are brain deficient. They are. There is a biological reason why they are impulive. Again, Caesar, created juvenile courts to specialize in treating children who offend. It is very ancient that a twelve year old and a forty-five year old must conform their behaviors to different degrees.

    If every juvenile record were extended into adulthood, just about every person would have a criminal record. Children are able to be refined and remolded. The primary purpose of adult prison is not rehab but punishment.

    They are against infant baptism. I'm not a baptism fanatic one way or the other. It means different things in different denominations so you are comparing apples and oranges. Why don't they let Caeasar's rule stand? I don't recall a single saying of Jesus or Paul concerning the punishment of errant teenagers. When I was twelve, I would do absolutely anything to marry Paul McCartney. I still would do almost anything. Other interests kicked in , as additions.

    Why can't Jehovah's organization do what Jesus would do? Suffer the little children.......Act as mentors. Safeguarding children from adult situations. Caesar says they lack mental capacity to be adults until they are adults. The WT is ever punitive, as we know. Can you see Jesus turning his back on a twelve year old. I can vividly picture Jesus looking for a lost minor sheep,no matter the cost to Jesus. In the same vein, I'm curious as to how Jewish worship included young children. Beat them, though you may, they will not pay attention and be quiet b/c it is a physical impossibility. Remember school recess? I don't recall KH recess.

  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    This, from Wiki: Nicotine use is not regulated in competitive sports programs, yet the drug has been shown to have a significant beneficial effect on athletic performance.

    Perhaps these bicycle competitors in that famous France road race during the 1920s knew something most of us don't know.

    The other article from Wiki, specifically about Nicotine, is very enlightening.

    By itself, absent the traditional vehicle -- tobacco -- has some health and wellness benefits. It also appears that it's not as addictive without the tobacco. It has some drawbacks as well, so the reader needs to weigh the pros and cons. If you're a JW, however, you won't need to do that as the Society has already done that for you. Isn't it nice to have Big Brother?

    I won't be starting my nicotine fixes anytime soon -- but I also won't be judging others about it.


  • NewChapter

    BOTR that is a good point and one I've thought of often. The teenage brain is not finished developing. It is changing all the time. Attitudes and impulses change. When I was a teen, kind of like you, I would have done anything to marry Peter Frampton! mmmmm Frampton. Purple was my favorite color, pizza was my favorite food, jocks were jerks, and math sucked.

    I've changed a bit. I prefer greens, only tolerate pizza, married a jock once, and am learning to be fascinated with math.

    As you pointed out, the justice system recognizes it and treats juvenile offenders differently than adults. I am referring here to curfew, vandalism, and theft, not rape and murder. Even a teenager can understand pure evil. But they don't fully grasp consequences. This is their time of life to experience and learn the full meaning of consequences.

    Not so in the "christian congregation". The rules are the same and the judgement is just as harsh. There are no degrees. The tax evader gets the same punishment as the "fornicator" as the murderer. Getting drunk carries the same penalty as pedophilia. I'm not a christian, but I find it a bit hard to believe that Jesus was quite so black and white. Surely if you believe in a creator you must also acknowledge that he understands immature brains and inexperience.

    It's just such a heavy load to put on small shoulders. But it will continue. I had an elder tell me that he was compelled to tell all young people at baptism that there was no rule that they should get disfellowshipped. Because in his experience, the majority of baptized teens get disfellowshipped while still young. That should have given him a clue, but it just led him to admonish them that they didn't have to fall into the trap. So they are losing that battle.


  • FatFreek 2005
    FatFreek 2005

    NewChapter and BandOnTheRun -- you've both added a meaningful chapter to this thread. The Society, in all its self-serving wisdom, just doesn't get what worldly society gets.


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