by Mindchild 47 Replies latest jw friends
Jules,
At the risk of sounding like a flamer, troll, or shit-stirrer, when I read Mindchild's painful memory I also had proplog's thought... that while the event happened at a JW event, it was not necessarily a JW-inspired atrocity.
Remove Mindchild from that particular setting but leave everything else intact and would the memory be less painful? What if it had happened at a ball game or dance recital? Who would be a fault then?
Hi Teejay,
You said:
:Remove Mindchild from that particular setting but leave everything else intact and would the memory be less painful? What if it had happened at a ball game or dance recital? Who would be a fault then?
Well the thing about this theory that makes me disagree is that I have never heard much in the way of horror stories regarding parents obssesive devotion to such an event and making a good showing to the degree you see these passions re: "district assemblies".
Secular activities such as those you mention rarely incite the sort of passion that a religious one would, especially a religion like the WT, where appearances are everything. It is the father's fault, I mean he took the action but it was the setting that led to the outcome. That setting was Extremely Mandatory to attend as we have seen by other examples in this thread.
I stand by my original reasoning on the matter but thanks for offering your thoughts.
Regards,
Julie
Mindchild:
I am sure you would find NOTHING in the Watchtower that says a parent should act like that. And that is what you are implying. The vast majority of JW's would instantly look at your fathers behavior as weird and extremely punitive. "You fathers do not be irritating your children".
This is a clear case of scapegoating. Face it your father had a nasty choleric temperament and you seem to have inherited his tendency to twist reality. Yeah that makes sense. A person is a member of some community/orgainzation/race/religion/fraternal society/nationality and THAT explains that persons freaky behavior. Ignore the fact that the vast majority of JW's would condemn your fathers behavior.
How do you explain my situation? Paddling of kids was allowed in my school district. Fuck education???
I really believe a lot of it has to do with just parenting skills. It doesn't matter what religion you are associated with if you have no parenting skills or if your an asshole then thats what you are.
If it were only a jw problem then the shetlers for abused women and children wouldn't be full up all the time. Child protection services would be stacked miles high as they are and have been for a long time.
Society has only recently (decade or so) really began focusing more on learning skills for better parenting. How many kids these days compared to 30 years ago know what a trip to the wood shed is all about?
My dad was an enormous asshole when it came to HIS kids. I grew up being afraid of my own dad. I use to be invious of other kids I played with if I saw them run up to their dad's and jump in there arms or just sit on there laps. I was all I could do sometimes not to cry. I wouldn't do that if my life depended on it because I didn't want anyone to think My dad didn't love me as much as there dads loved them so I just pretended that I never noticed. It took me a lot of years, sadly, to realize my dad was one of those people who had no clue how to raise kids. Had no idea what it was to be a father. The answer to a problem was Knock it out. It's really sad the best we can do is not what they did.
Julie
Secular activities such as those you mention rarely incite the sort of passion that a religious one would, especially a religion like the WT, where appearances are everything. It is the father's fault, I mean he took the action but it was the setting that led to the outcome.
Been to a soccer game or a Little Leage game lately?
Secular activities such as those you mention rarely incite the sort of passion that a religious one would, especially a religion like the WT, where appearances are everything.
Jules,
On second thought, you're probably right.
Mentally, I objected to the singling out of the JWs for ridicule here. Yet I'm forced to agree that few parents attending a ball game would keep a sick kid from going to the bathroom. Parents at a religious gathering very well might.
At issue is, I think, the religious context. What sets JW life apart—indeed the life of all cultic religionists—is strict adherence to behaviors that establishes an individual (or family) as "approved" or "spiritually strong." Anything other than that is to be avoided, even if it means denying your child a trip to the bathroom. Sad.
tj
Teejay said:
Remove Mindchild from that particular setting but leave everything else intact and would the memory be less painful?
I daresay the memory would NOT be less painful. JW dads do not corner the market on abuse.
What if it had happened at a ball game or dance recital?Sorry, I'm with Julie here, teejay and plmkrzy. In neither of those venues (nor at a soccer game, Little Leage game, cheerleading competition, etc.) would a parent prevent their child from going to the washroom until an arbitrary, set break in the action/program. If a kid told a coach s/he were going to vomit, the coach would signal "time out" and get the kid out of the game... If a kid told a teacher, prolog2, that teacher would give the kid a bathroom pass immediately.
Who would be a fault then?
Mindchild is angry with the Watchtower Society for fomenting a CLIMATE that enabled his father to be JUSTIFIED in ignoring his needs (Be sure to be in your seats on time! Don't miss a MINUTE of the program!) and then PUNISHING him for an uncontrollable physical reaction (The much misused scripture: "Do not you hold back discipline from the mere boy. In case you beat him with the rod, he will not die." -- Proverbs 23:13). If the Watchtower was doing its much-touted job of turning people into disciples of CHRIST, such a scenario should NEVER had taken place. The lack of real, kindly love is rampant in the organization, and when reflected in a Father's attitude toward his own child, is especially cutting to the child and repugnant to onlookers. Yet, I'll wager not ONE of the brothers in the rest room that day stepped in to "counsel" Dad on his excesses!
Who would be at fault were the same events to occur elsewhere? Squarely on the shoulders of the father (and the browbeaten mother who bought into the submission thing against her own common sense?)!
But, as demonstrated above, OTHER worldly parental authority figures would be REASONABLE and the situation would likely never have gotten to that sad state of affairs.
outnfree
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden
Hey, teejay!
I was posting at the same time as you. Nice to see you conceded a bit on that point.
outnfree
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden
someone said: <<Ignore the fact that the vast majority of JW's would condemn your fathers behavior>>
At this point in time, perhaps the above statement is becoming overtly true. They have learned (strictly for PC purposes) to be far more discreet about their archaic views of women and children. Caving to PUBLIC pressure has "moved" them to be less publically abusive (does anyone besides myself remember the KM part, wherein they had to address the problem of disciplining [read abusing/beating shit out of] children OUTSIDE or in public view?--not a reminder not to abuse children, mind you--no, no, simply hide it better, don't let the unsuspecting worldings/potential converts see the dirty, dirty little secrets behind our windowless walls!).
The fact remains, however, that it is only because of public pressure that their outward views and actions have changed. However, I recall that as late as 1993 I was being STRONGLY encouraged to physically abuse my 4 month old infant for crying at the meetings because "she knows what she's doing". Thankfully, I followed my maternal instincts and not covert cult sanction and refused to abuse my daughter. If only my mother had done the same for me. So, while the Jehovah's Witnesses would like nothing more, I'm sure than to distance themselves from their tacit, if not outright encouragement to abuse children and deny women's rights, there are simply too many of us who share these growing-up-as-jdub kid stories. And we're not going away--and we will not slink quietly out of the organization, book bags tucked between our legs without telling our stories.
AND I AM GLAD that telling our dirty little secrets to the world is absolutely FORCING the Jehovah's Witnesses to be slightly less overtly abusive towards women and children. And for that reason alone, I refuse to be silent.
KEEP SCREAMING YOUR PAIN, AND BLEEDING OUT YOUR TOXINS, BROTHER SKIP!! They may have stuffed towels in Laree's mouth to silence her screams, but they can't do that to all of us (much as they'd love to).
WE HEAR YOU. we hear you.
we care.
we love you.
peace....
Bridgette
A brief bit of explanation about my post:
I got into a bit of an emotional discussion last night with someone in chat and for better or worse it just triggered a bunch of locked up feelings that made me miserable and I just decided to post a segment from an IM about part of what happened to me in the past.
I want to thank all of you who sent me encouraging email and those who replied with kindness and similar stories of their own in their posts.
Reading all these stories and thinking about my own experiences has helped me to appreciate something about my anger. First, I think it safe to say that the trauma, hurt and anger that happens to us as children carries over into our adult lives even if we think it is long forgotten. My own way of dealing with the pain and anger has mostly been to lock it up in a mental closet for years but about 6 years ago I had about a year of therapy to try to get rid of all this JW crap and other poison from my life and that helped considerably. I probably should have stayed in therapy but I felt so much better after that, I considered myself healed but apparently not.
I know some of you also lock your anger inside like I do, or maybe you have a different strategy that can range from just being so busy with your life you don’t have time to feel to drinking to numb the pain. Whatever method we use, the fact remains that it is damn tragic that this damage had to occur in the first place.
Who do I blame for my own misery? Should I blame my father, my shitty luck, the Watchtower Society, myself, God?
My parents were second generation Witnesses. My grandfather on my father’s side was a very stern and authoritarian man in respect to my own father. He mellowed out considerably in his later years but he often told me how “soft” I had it compared to how he treated my father when it came to beatings that were done in righteousness. In the early days of JW history, severe beatings of children were not uncommon. He pointed out that this was justified as my father remained in the “truth” because he didn’t spare the rod. My own father’s treatment towards me was partly done because of the example his JW father set for him and from the encouragement the WTS gave in the 60’s to strongly discipline your children. I don’t think my father was actually that much different than most JW men in those days, at least those who had kids. Corporal punishment was also used in the schools then, and was fairly well accepted as the standard way to raise kids.
In this respect, my father wasn’t an evil man, but more just a victim as I was. He took his responsibility to raise and care for our family seriously, but I could tell when he started beating on my sisters and me that he “lost” it because of his own anger and pain.
It is easy to look back 30 some years ago and just blame it on my father as being responsible but in fact the true culprit is the WTS. Why do I say that? After all the Catholics, Mormons, and just about every other religion taught the same damn form of child abuse. The Witnesses had no monopoly on mistreating their kids. But the Witnesses claim to have a monopoly on “truth” and this was their version of “truth” then to beat your kids so they couldn’t sit down.
Regardless, just attaching a name to the blame doesn’t do much for getting rid of the anger or pain. Redirecting that anger into more productive uses to use its energy is a much smarter move to make. The anger in me is part of who I am now and I think instead of keeping it locked up, I’m going to be looking for a better way to kick Watchtower ass to stop their continued abuse and mind raping.
Skipper
Just wanted to thank some people individually for caring:
Saint Satan
Bea
Outlaw
BritBoy
Refiners fire
Seedy
ISP
Teejay
Mommie Dark
Plm
Celia
Pat
Outnfree
Ken P.
Cellomold
Flower
Angel
Lilacs
Dana
Tina
Diana
Julie
Expatbrit
Bridgette
By email and IM: Ana, Wendy, and Venice
Kind Regards,
Skipper
