@3dogs1husband:
wow you dont even hide the fact that you are a troll, get off of my thread even though you have already killed it. you say:
I am speaking to a much larger audience
I am a troll and I have every right to be such. There are other websites that you can join that I don't frequent, so if what I do here should be a problem, then perhaps we'll meet on one of these other websites in the future. Let me be the first to wish you well, should I be the reason you leave JWN. It would appear that you now regret having asked me the following question:
Do you have any [suggestions] (articles, scriptures, etc) that I could share with my loved ones to make them more comfortable veering from the hard line the society takes on "apostate" websites such as this?
I trust that you will not in the future make this mistake again.
Well make a new topic and rant till the cows come home [and] attract your larger audience on your own merit....this was my thread and my topic which btw you have been [on] for some time now.
I'm satisfied posting to an existing topic like this one that you started, so I'll pass.
lol dj I knew Jehovah could make the rocks cry out...but I never would have guessed he would make eggnog.
Are you suggesting that I'm not a rock?
Start a thread...but this [thread] is closed to you. ty
I'm sorry, but relative to me, you're the newbie here. You don't run anything here nor do you moderate the threads posted on JWN. I think you should leave the decision on closing threads to members of JWN to people like @Simon and @Lady Lee, who handle such things with aplomb around here, for unless an administrator decides to do so, no thread is closed.
@Paralipomenon:
As for mr. nog. What he's trying to do is to preach to active witness lurkers. General motto is to look for posts that might actually sway someone and try to show the "balanced witness" side of things. Similar posting style to some older apologist troll accounts.
Is that what you believe I do here? Were you to click on my handle and randomly scan the threads to which I have posted, you will discover that I don't "look for posts that might actually sway someone," since I have no real interest in trying to "sway" any of the apostates here away from their divergent points of view about Scripture. (Having been one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years, I learned a long ago from the Bible what a waste of my time it would be to try to revive to repentance anyone that has fallen away from the truth, which you would have learned had your faith been genuine since I'm pretty sure the passage at Hebrews 6:4-6 was included in your Bible, too.) My posts are primarily directed to the many lurkers that read the threads here on JWN. If you are in a position to prove that I'm lying here, then please do.
Eventually the "integrity" of the troll account is compromised. The Witness faith is indefensible, the truth comes out in the end. Then they create a new account and start fresh.
I've been posting messages to JWN since June of 2010 and I continue to use the same account. Again, @Paralipomenon, if you are in a position to prove that I'm lying, then please do.
@3dogs1husband:
ok dj please dont just cut and paste whacks and whacks of ......"stuff" about JW's- this post was about a day a year where we could speak truth and have the courage to be able to be true to oneself. this is not about being a franzie (whatever that means)....but maybe it is a bit that you didnt get a do over? If so the floor is yours to start fresh.....
@djeggnog wrote:
There is something about my messaging style that is distinctively me, and I wouldn't expect you to know this, @3dogs1husband: I never really do any cutting and pasting here unless those cuts and pastes are someone else's words. I rarely quote from any of our publications here -- only the Bible -- and when I do quote from any of them, it is only when it is relevant to do so when discussing some topic where someone else has quoted from one of our publications. (People here will often quote from one of the volumes associated with the Studies in the Scriptures series, for example. I have no idea why they quote from these old publications.)
@The Finger wrote:
I cant speak for other people. The reason I quote is to show what those who claim to be anointed want preached. If we don't preach it it will cost us our salvation.
I don't believe God wants us to preach false teachings.
If you include quotations in your posts here from our older publications that you believe to contain false teachings in them, then wouldn't you yourself be guilty of preaching the same false teachings that you claim to believe God disapproves? Maybe I'm not quite understanding what you are saying here, especially this part: "If we don't preach it[,] it will cost us our salvation."
@outsmartthesystem:
DJeggnogg - You keep mentioning the imperfections of the elders....and how people need to overlook them because we are all imperfect and we need to learn what true humility is.....etc etc. What you fail to discern with most of us is that the problem doesn't lie with the elders necessarily. They are just as much mind controlled as we all were at one point. The problem lies with the governing body.
How so? If you happen to know these men personally, the ones that sit on the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, then perhaps there is a legitimate reason for your disdain from them. For reasons unbeknownst to me, you don't much care for these men in the least, which is fine with me, but why should I care that you don't care for them much? Why aren't you man enough to take pencil or pen to paper and tell them what you think of them? Why would you be here telling me what you think about these men? I suppose I could contact these men and tell them that you don't like them very much, but I'm pretty sure that they would all of them think that I'd lost my senses passing on such tripe to them.
This is a group of men that say "We also have the faithful and discreet slave appointed by Jesus to provide spiritual "food at the proper time". Thus God is still speaking. But are we listening?" (7-15-98 WT p 12). Yet these same men also say "the brothers preparing these publications are no infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers". (03-22-93 Awake p4). So which is it?
Your question here presupposes that the two things you mention here are mutually exclusive; that is to say, that it is not possible for the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses to represent the faithful and discreet slave and that it is also not possible that imperfect men can carry the water for Christ and yet the brothers responsible for preparing our many publications not be writing them under the inspiration of Jehovah God. Unfortunately, I don't believe these things to be mutually exclusive, so I'll let you figure out what it is you wanted to say but didn't, or let you shop the answer to your question with someone that thrives when someone asks them an imponderable like yours.
Are they or are they not the sole channel of communication from God to his earthly servants?
The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses is not the sole channel of communication from God to his earthly servants. Rather, the composite anointed body of Christians is what constitutes God's sole channel of communication, to whom Jesus refers at Matthew 24:45 as the "faithful and discreet slave." BTW, the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society is merely the legal instrument used by Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is neither the faithful and discreet slave nor is this entity God's sole channel of communication.
They claim not to be inspired....yet they claim to have God's spirit?
Yes.
What's the difference between being directed by God's spirit and being inspired by God? Does being inspired mean that you are divinely guaranteed to pen the correct words....but being directed by Holy Spirit means you may or may not get it right?
This last question of yours is a compound question , so I'll answer your second question first before answering the first one:
Yes and yes. Maybe you will recall, and maybe not, that when the matter of whether Gentile Christians should be circumcised arose back in 49 AD, Jehovah progressively revealed to the early Christian congregation through His spirit that circumcision was not a requirement for Gentile Christians or anyone converting to Christianity. But it is noteworthy that it wasn't just the holy spirit that decided the matter: "The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you...." (Acts 15:28) Today, Jehovah's Witnesses submit to the leading of God's spirit when it comes to our prophetic interpretation of the Bible, but none of us speak by divine inspiration since those spiritual gifts ended when John, the last of the apostles, died. (1 Corinthians 13:8)
Since Jehovah's Witnesses put their faith in God's word, God's spirit may lead us to the realization that we may have gotten something wrong, that we may have drawn a wrong conclusion about something we may have understood differently in the past. Over the years, such progressive changes have occurred many tines as our understanding of the Bible increases, so over the years there have been many adjustments in our understanding, and these adjustments are published as soon as practicable in our literature, and at our Kingdom Halls, circuit and district assemblies.
But because Jehovah's Witnesses continue to be led by holy spirit, only qualified men are appointed to serve as overseers based on the standard provided in God's word, so in this way they are appointed by holy spirit according to the scriptural requirements set forth at 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9, and by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses through the recommendations made by spiritually "certified men ... full of spirit and wisdom." (Acts 6:3)
As to your first question, the Bible was inspired by God, for the men that contributed to its pages were all "borne along by holy spirit" (2 Peter 1:21), but being directed by God's spirit requires one to submit to what things the holy spirit directs, that is to say, we are doing our best to adhere and subject ourselves to the spiritual guidance that Jehovah provides in the Bible. (Galatians 5:16, 18)
And if you don't get it right, can you really say you were directed by the Holy Spirit in the first place?
Yes, for while God's word is infallible and Jehovah never gets it wrong, we ourselves sometimes do not get it right, but this in no way means that we are not directed by God's holy spirit. When we get something wrong, this simply means that we are not infallible -- which we already knew -- and that we need to make an adjustment in our viewpoint so that our view is in harmony with what we have since come to appreciate the Bible teaches in that regard.
Regardless, the GB does claim that all edicts are coming from God.
I don't think this is so. The governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses alone doesn't make such statements. It is Jehovah's Witnesses themselves, with the assent of our governing body, the central body of elders that is taking the lead in ensuring that the good news is being preached throughout the earth for a witness that submits to the instruction provided in God's word.
"How then do we react when we receive divine direction?" (04-15-2011 WT p4) What is the definition of divine? It is "proceeding from God". So these men claim not to be infallible....yet still claim that the directives issued are divine.
Again, I must ask you: Why do you believe the divine direction we receive from Jehovah through his word, the Bible -- these directives to which you refer -- and our claim that not one of Jehovah's Witnesses is infallible are mutually exclusive? They aren't mutually exclusive at all.
Dude. You can't have it both ways. Either you are or you are not directed by God.
This is not what you just said here. We can have it both ways and we do: Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by God by means of his holy spirit, period.
If they are directed by God, they have no excuse for false prophecies and flip flops of teachings....unless.....God directed them to write/teach such a falsehood.
What "false prophecies" do you mean? Jehovah's Witnesses have neither taught nor published any false prophecies. If you don't mind, please name one of these false prophecies that we have taught or published. Please don't be vague or ambiguous, but be specific.
Would God direct them to mislead 7,000,000 people?
This allegations suggests that Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of misleading 7 million people in some way, which is not true. Again, if you don't mind, I'd like you to provide one example of our having misled anyone, let alone 7 million people, and with specificity, please.
Yes we have biblical examples of imperfect men in the lead, such as the Bible writers. But let me ask you a question. How many of the bible writers got it wrong when they penned the scriptures?
None, for each of the 40 Bible writers wee borne along by holy spirit.
Did Paul have to go back 10 years later and change what Luke wrote because of increased light?
No. Luke wrote as he was borne along by holy spirit.
Did Nehemiah [misinterpret] the [blueprints] and have to start over during the rebuilding of Jerusalem?
You just asked this question when you asked how many of the Bible writers -- Nehemiah being one of the 40 men that contributed to the Bible in use today -- got it wrong when they penned the scriptures, and my answer is the same, none.
If the Holy spirit in the past guided imperfect humans to follow Jehovah's direction perfectly and guided imperfect humans to pen his words perfectly.....and that same Holy Spirit is operational today.... then those directions should similarly be perfect.
The holy spirit that provided perfect guidance to imperfect humans in the past is the same holy spirit that provides perfect guidance to imperfect humans today.
Not the men....but the directions.
I believe I understood you the first time.
Simply put....if the Holy Spirit is directing you....you don't get it wrong. If you get it wrong....then it wasn't directing you, was it?
If this is what you believe to be true, then you are mistaken, because even though Jehovah's Witnesses are directed by holy spirit, we have at times 'gotten it wrong.' The fact that we have 'gotten in wrong' in the past does not mean that we were not being directed by holy spirit. However, if you are persuaded to a different opinion in this regard, that's your choice, but one thing has nothing to do with the other, except in your own mind. This question of yours is loaded as it assumes facts that are not in evidence. What is your proof that if Jehovah's Witnesses were being led by holy spirit that we shouldn't be getting anything wrong?
If these men have, do and will be wrong in their predictions and teachings then they have absolutely no right to demand unquestioning loyalty and unity and do not have God's authority to strictly enforce obedience to their ever changing doctrinal interpretations.
What are these "predictions" to which you refer? What "predictions" have Jehovah's Witnesses made? Jehovah's Witnesses have taught things in the past that we have since come to realize were erroneous and we have made necessary adjustments to our teaching, as appropriate. Contrary to what you have stated here, Jehovah's Witnesses do not demand anyone to give them unquestioning loyalty and unity, so it's clear to me that you made this up since you cannot prove this statement to be true. You are mistaken when you suggest that we believe we have been given the authority by God to strictly enforce obedience to ever changing doctrinal interpretations. Morever, Jehovah's Witnesses do possess the God-given authority to strictly enforce obedience to his righteous principles as set forth in the Bible, even if you should not think we do.
Summing it up....we have men that claim they are speaking for God.....yet when things go wrong they say they aren't perfect and it is unreasonable to expect perfection.
I can agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's mouthpiece today, that we do speak for God. (2 Corinthians 5:20) I can also agree that when we get something wrong, this is because we are imperfect. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8) Lastly, I agree with you that it would be unreasonable for anyone to expect perfection from an imperfect creature. (Deuteronomy 32:5)
Yet they also say in as many words, "if you want to avoid eternal destruction....you need to QUIT believing THIS....and START believing THIS.....because the teaching has changed."
This statement of yours is loaded in that it assumes facts that are not in evidence. When ever have Jehovah's Witnesses told anyone to quit believing something and to start believing something else for any reason?
Again...imperfect men...claiming to be speaking from God.....but only until the proverbial **** hits the fan and then demanding unquestioning loyalty to doctrines that can change at any time.
Jehovah's Witnesses do claim to speak for God and we have never taken some other position in this regard whenever it is some "proverbial ****" hits the fan," whatever this "proverbial ****" happens to be. Furthermore, Jehovah's Witnesses have never demanded unquestioning loyalty to doctrines by anyone. You make this same statement above, but you made this up since you cannot prove this statement of yours to be true.
That doesn't sound cult like?
Does what sound cultlike? Many of the people here on JWN are members of a cult, followers of Ray Franz, since these folks to whom I refer all seem to have read one or both of Franz' books, and subscribe to many of the things that Franz believed, just as one might expect any follower of a cult to do. Many of these folks tend to believe many of the same things and will often speak in agreement, with the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses being their principal foe-in-chief as they put on a pretense (some of them) of being Jehovah's Witnesses when these Franzite cult members are really counterfeit Christians.
That sounds like God's smooth, flowing direction?
Huh? If you don't mind, please rephrase your question.
@djeggnog
