I know I aint gunna crumble the WT, but a girl can dream! (page 3)

sizemik

After reading some of your previous posts DJEggNog . . .

Your quaint little quotes remind me of a conversation Eve had in the garden of Eden.

But your true nature emerged by posts' end

Why not leave the Lady alone this time.

sizemik

he he he . . . I'm glad you're not offended 3and1 . . . but I do have an aversion to talking snakes. lol

sizemik maybe the "snake" is just like the wizard in the wizard of oz...just a regular old human, if you draw back the curtain and cut all the sound effects. anyways dj defiently has a very diffrent point of view for the board and compared to regular JW's infact I too have been reading some of the debates he has been part of....very very intresting.

one point is that allthough having been confronted with very skilled debators and in some cases an overwhelming amout of evidence DJ remains true to his JW doctrine. I could see showing my family these discusions and saying "see DJ did not change his mind or become an "apostate" he was able to entertain a thought other then from the FDS"

the other point is when I have read some of Dj's posts I clearly can see how I used to think and how the jw mindset reasons on a topic - it is very clear contrast to the other posters. which could lead to a few other minds being freed.

djeggnog

@3dogs1husband:

Djeggnog I am glad you enjoyed the quote - your post gives me great hope, maybe one day those I love will be open enough to discuss ideas [different] to the WT, and as it seems in your case [examining] the evidence has made your faith stronger?

Actually, I don't nurse any ideas or notions that differ from what the Bible teaches, so considering the fact that I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses, I don't think you would expect me to be indifferent to the things that what Jehovah's Witnesses, but my faith is based on my own examination of the Bible, having proved to myself that what things the Bible teaches is the truth, including what it says about the imperfections of human beings, which shortcomings not just you and I, but our elders, too, have a struggle with as they must learn what humility is, so that they don't pretend to the chagrin of those over whom they are supposed to preside in the fine way, that they are a cut above the sinners.

Some elders have need to overcome attitudes like this of a Pharisee, who thought himself better than other people: "This man, if he were a prophet, would know who and what kind of woman it is that is touching him, that she is a sinner." (Luke 7:39) Many have become stumbled by such attitudes and murmur about these imperfect men, and eventually leave our ranks in disgust for purely fleshly reasons and not spiritual reasons (remember at John 6:63 Jesus said that "the flesh is of no use at all"), but my view is this: If Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth (we do!), and Jesus is the head of the congregation (and he is!), then anyone that leaves our ranks betrays that they really don't believe it is the ransom that saves us, treating Jesus' blood, the blood of the new covenant, "as of ordinary value,' and that it was not granted to them by the Father "to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens" of which acceptance of Jesus' ransom is key. (John 6:64, 65; Hebrews 10:29)

Who is there among men that understands these sacred secrets of the kingdom better than the head of the Christian congregation? Jehovah's Witnesses don't typically celebrate Christmas or birthdays, but some of us live in households where family members celebrate such things. So what? We don't have bake sales or gospel singing contests with other Kingdom Halls, nor do we conduct Bingo contests in our Kingdom Halls. So what?

Jehovah's Witnesses don't condone cigarette smoking or premarital sexual relations, but those living in households with a cigarette smoker, many non-smokers that are Jehovah's Witnesses have died from cancer as the result of second-hand smoke, and loathsome diseases like genital herpes, Herpes simplex, HIV/AIDS, human papilloma virus (HPV) and Kaposi's sarcoma-associated herpes virus (HHV-8) are rarely contracted by Jehovah's Witnesses, young and old alike, and usually only plagues married people when one of them cheats than those who are unmarried (but this has occurred in this group, too). So what if other Christian groups permit their members to smoke cigarettes and anything else without sanction, or they have learned how to live with their illnesses in childless marriages, or they cannot have children because it is not medically prudent for their members to do so?

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Catholics or Mormons or Baptists or Seventh-Day Adventists or Methodists or Episcopalians. We're a different denomination having many beliefs that differ from the beliefs of other Christian denominations. If our beliefs weren't different, but were like those of Catholics or Mormons or Baptists or Seventh-Day Adventists or Methodists or Episcopalians, then we would not be Jehovah's Witnesses, but would then be Catholics or Mormons or Baptists or Seventh-Day Adventists or Methodists or Episcopalians, would we not?

Jehovah's Witnesses still don't yet know what Jesus meant at Matthew 24:34 by "this generation" and maybe the next adjustment in our understanding of it will be the charm, but so what? Other Christian groups still believe God to be a trinity, and believe that by their simply believing that "Jesus is the Way," without any understanding by them that salvation is conditioned upon faith in the ransom that they are already saved, so there are things we both don't know, but Jesus is still the head of the congregation, is he not? I know that Abraham had two wives -- Sarah and Hagar -- but I don't know the name of Noah's wife; the Bible is silent on that front. I know Jesus never could have uttered words to the effect, 'Let him that is without sin, cast the first stone' (John 8:7), and I know the apostle John never wrote words to the effect that 'these three -- Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost -- are one' (1 John 5:7, KJV), but I do know that absolutely no one can be saved apart from their exercising faith in Jesus' name, which stands for the ransom given to redeem those putting faith in it, so whatever things I don't know can wait until Judgment Day.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't condone in vitro fertilization where the sperm that fertilizes the ovum doesn't belong to one's own husband either (Leviticus 18:20), or accept blood transfusions, because the Bible commands Christians to "abstain ... from blood" (Acts 15:20). It is a fact that a blood transfusion lowers the host's immune response and ability to fight infections, so that it predisposes a sick patient for the inset of infections that their immune system could have fought off were it not for the transfused blood introduced into the patient's body. It is also a fact that bloodless surgery patients treated without blood transfusions do better when compared to patients that have received blood transfusions. So what?

While it's true that Jehovah's Witnesses do not accept blood transfusions, no one is forced to obey God, so if one should accept blood anyway, or a wife should become pregnant through giving her consent to an in vitro medical procedure, this would be her choice to make, not the choice of the local elders, for we all know that it is often because of a lack of faith that such choices are hard for some to make, but so what? Again, if Jehovah's Witnesses should be wrong as to our doctrinal beliefs regarding such things -- we currently believe that our accepting blood fractions may not technically be in violation of God's command to "abstain ... from blood" (Acts 15:20), but we also could be wrong about this, which has made this matter a conscience issue -- so that?

We who are strong ought to be bearing "the weaknesses of those not strong" (Romans 15:1), and many elders have borne and are bearing the weaknesses of those not strong, but not all elders have a spiritual aptitude for making such calls in the congregation, many of them being as hard on the flock as they are on their wives and their own children when it comes to mercy, and in many cases disfellowshippings have and do occur, but so what? Again, isn't Jesus still the head of the congregation? Wouldn't he know where our weaknesses lie or even why doubts creep in from time to time? Certainly Jehovah would know such things about us, would he not?

When we experience trials of any sort, we ought to be praying for strength to get through them s why aren't more praying for such spiritual strength? Why would anyone leave our ranks because of the human imperfections of the elders? Aren't we all imperfect sentient beings with a spiritual need or is this a false doctrine?

Do you have any [suggestions] (articles, scriptures, etc) that I could share with my loved ones to make them more comfortable veering from the hard line the society takes on "apostate" websites such as this?

The fact that I'm here ought to inform you that JWN is not an apostate website. It really wouldn't be wise in my opinion for anyone to just believe what anyone else says should they tell you anything different than this; they are not running JWN and I don't either. You could ask @Simon if it is true that JWN is an apostate website before taking anyone else's word to this effect; he runs this website and would know what it is and isn't. But what you believe and why is up to you. Just because JWN is frequently visited by apostates doesn't undermine my reasons for being here, which is not because I'm bitter against anyone or want to persuade others to take a course in opposition to God's will. Many of those on the proverbial fence -- some of them lurkers -- come to JWN because they have doubts about their faith. They cannot approach their local elders or don't want to approach them, so they come here for solace and I give it to them, even if they should expect the folks here on JWN to side with the reasons for their disgruntled state. I'm here to provide spiritual solace to those that want it. Not everyone's faith is strong enough to handle the statements made by many of the apostates here that will test one's faith, that will let people know if their faith in God is weak or strong, so I wouldn't recommend that just anyone read many of the posts here on JWN.

You could have them read this one, <g> but the reasons for the "hard line" taken on Jehovah's Witnesses visiting apostate websites are sound ones, and, again, I would not be here if this were, in fact, an apostate website. But because so many of the folks here on JWN are apostates, this website could prove to be a dangerous minefield and you would have to use your own judgment in this matter. This hard line is taken just to protect the flock from apostate ideas, for sharing such ideas with others could would in your sharing in the sins of these apostates, in your becoming either a disciple of the Franzite cult to which many JWNers belong, or the conduit through which those you tell (whose faith is weak!) end up falling victim to and becoming a disciple of Franz.

I am not trying to take away their faith, I am trying to be truthful to myself. If i get the courage to share this site with my mother, I might start by showing her your profile it might ease her fear that this site is for non JW's only.

I'm flattered, but, really, only you can make such a call, @3dogs1husband; I wouldn't think to make this call for you. Like I said, you could print out and have you mother read my post, but what you should decide to do in any event would be entirely up to you. The one thing that I would exhort you to do is to be wise, "because the days are wicked." (Ephesians 5:15-17)

@sizemik:

After reading some of your previous posts DJEggNog . . .

Your quaint little quotes remind me of a conversation Eve had in the garden of Eden.

And this means what?

Why not leave the Lady alone this time.

Oh, so as you are lovebombing the woman and seeking to indoctrinate her with "The Course in Apostasy" that "you guys" offer to most every newbie that joins JWN, such as Ray Franz' books, "How to Follow My Lead" and "Congratulations, You've Become a Franzite" (which I'm sure were working titles before he came up with the ones you know so well!), you wonder why "this time" I should leave the lady alone? So if I'm actively one of Jehovah's Witnesses and not an apostate, then if I should post one or more messages here to one of the latest targets of this lovebombing that "you guys" do here for all of the newbies to JWN (which is not to say that someone that has been posting here since October 2010 is disqualified from being a "newbie"), to at least put her on notice that the cunning here is as good as the serpent's befriending of Eve in the garden, then who am I really "bothering"? Would that be she or you?

I wanted her to know that what happened with @Berengaria's initial remark was not unintentional, but clumsily delivered, which is why a "start-over" was thought to be the way forward to initiating her into the apostate culture that exists on JWN, that those with just a little faith are not welcomed here with open arms (remember Jesus said that a tiny mustard seed does becomes a tree and all of that) so that she will at least get some idea about what is coming. I'm trying to remember when it was This is a internet forum, not a Kingdom Hall, and a married woman is typically not a child, and since I know that "you guys" go after the rank and file vigorously and adroitly, often tag-team style, why wasn't she entitled to receive a warning as this "lovefest" gets underway? I've been coming here for four months longer than @3dogs1husband (since June 2010), and for some reason I've gotten no lovebombing from any of you.

As an adult that is full grown that speaks the truth and not a newbie to the cunning employed here on JWN, as someone that enjoys his Christian freedom, being a doer of the work and "not a forgetful hearer" as are many folks here, I actually do love "the perfect law that belongs to freedom," and I would never keep the counsel of apostates, so you can keep your counsel to yourself. (James 1:25; Ephesians 4:11-15) For many newbies, JWN may prove to be a vigorous test of what little faith they have. There are at least two things that Jesus might say to you now, @sizemik: (1) 'If I is my will that someone here should get a fair warning about what's coming, of what concern is that to you?' (John 21:22) And the other thing? (2) 'Whatever it is you are doing, get it done more quickly.' (John 13:27 )

@3dogs1husband:

SO I am Eve?

This may not be true of you, for imo what you are cannot yet be known about you, but if you should actually succumb to the serpent's advances so that you become ensnared, you will be caught unawares detached from your spiritual senses, but the good news is that many have "come back to their proper senses," and it is not unheard of that "some that have doubts" have actually been snatched out of the fire before they have become totally consumed by it. (James 1:14, 15; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 22, 23)

@sizemik:

I do have an aversion to talking snakes.

Satan did use a serpent, and he has also employed the ventriloquistic services of a donkey, but in the garden, after first deceiving her, he used Eve to cause Adam to deflect, and he has since employed human beings with success to turn folks away from Jehovah. That you would have such an aversion does seem rather odd. I would think that snakes would get along fine with their own kind.

@djeggnog

punkofnice

Recently I've decided to leave the negtivity behind. It take time granted.

Thanks to support forums this has been possible with PMs from really genuine folk.

I'll mention Rose Petal and her husband who have been a great support in my 'hurricane years'. They met up with me after I gave a breif sermon in a Baptist Church. Something that 18 months ago I thought was impossible.

There are always big scumbag organizations that'll live on after we've gone.

I long to hear of the watchtower's fall. A hollow victory as I understand the GB have 'legal' things in place to trawl in the residual cash if it does. Talk about not using the 'world' to the full. But hey. they're not a religion but a big business posing as religion to get power and cash.

I'm leaving them behind now as I move on, even though my wife bows in worship to the WTB$ it makes life hard but the help I get rom my friends at Church is amazing! I'm not preaching. If someone is athiest, agnostic, muslim or whatever and this makes them happy then good for them. Long may their happiness continue. Live and let live.

Anyway, on the topic of not holding onto negativity..........

3dogs1husband

ok dj please dont just cut and paste whacks and whacks of ......"stuff" about JW's- this post was about a day a year where we could speak truth and have the courage to be able to be true to oneself. this is not about being a franzie (whatever that means)....but maybe it is a bit that you didnt get a do over? If so the floor is yours to start fresh.....

I know I aint gunna crumble the WT, but a girl can dream!

sizemik

3dogs1husband

sizemik

3dogs1husband

djeggnog

punkofnice

3dogs1husband

3dogs1husband

Billy the Ex-Bethelite

3dogs1husband

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