LDS/Mormon tritheism/plurality of gods conflicts with monotheistic Judeo-Christianity. Trinitarianism is strictly monotheistic since there is only one God, one nature of God, one being of God, not 3 gods.
Is Rev 5:11-14 Worship or Obeisance?
by JCISGOD98 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
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designs
Au contraire again, you have a supposed Son with a supposed physical body running around heaven that make two natures and maybe two beings but the Bishops never could work that out completely except for flopping out a deck of excuses, watch the excuses come out from the Trinitarians now...
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godrulz
In His pre-existence, Jesus was the eternal, uncreated Word. In the incarnation, He added humanity without ceasing to be Deity, one person with two natures. I Tim. now says He is the man Christ Jesus post-resurrection. He is also still Alpha/Omega, I AM, King of kings, Lord of lords, YHWH, etc. post-resurrection. He has a glorified body and is not the glorified vs fleshly God-Man forever, fully Deity, but did not destroy His humanity, just changed it (WT ideas of Michael, created Jesus, recreated spirit creature, Deity denial, etc. are all false, unbiblical concepts).
All you are doing is displaying ignorance on theology. If a Catholic Bishop cannot explain the basic parameters that I just did, then they are not worth their weight in salt. If you check the online Catholic Encyclopedia, you will see detailed explanations of His Deity, incarnation, resurrection, glorified body, reign, trinity, etc.
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designs
Ah! so you now admit 'two natures', gotcha ya! Pretty soon you'll be going Door to Door with the W&A
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godrulz
Huh? WT does not teach two natures, but the Christian Church has always said that Jesus is one person with two natures (Deity/humanity). There have been attacks on this truth, but it has stood the biblical test of time. What is WandA? If I go door-to-door with JWs, it will be to oppose them and warn the householder about their cult.
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Sulla
Obviously McGrath does not say that "worship of Jesus was not an issue for Trypho". The point is why was it an issue. McGrath argues that it was an issue for Trypho because he did not view a crucified man as a worthy object of worship. And of course neither does McGrath "prove that Christians didn't even worship God", that's a false characterisation of his argument, again taken from Hurtado's response.
Well, I read McGrath's viewpoint on Revelation independently and I came to the same conclusion Hurtado did. From what I recall, McGrath set out to establish sacrificial worship as the sine qua non of real worship and, finding that Christians did not make such sacrifices to Jesus, considered this evidence against the hypothesis that the early Christians worshiped Jesus in any real way. If McGrath takes exception to this viewpoint, I guess that's his right. Still, I think a few minutes looking around at some literature on this question (the Revelation one, I mean) would lead to works like Bauckham and others who, combined with a pretty straightforward reading of the book, make it pretty clear what is supposed to be going on there.
As for Hurtado's wider work on what the earliest Christians actually did and how those actions fit in the context of the religious actions of the time, I think he's made a pretty good case. We really do observe a pattern of inclusive worship of Jesus with God in a way unlike any comparable examples within Jewish society. It is this worship that is seen in the shocking scenes within Revelation where the Lamb is obviously worshiped with God -- these scenes are as blasphemous to Jews now as they were back then, and they represent a significant departure from anything seen before in any Jewish context.
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Vanderhoven7
bookmarked
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JCISGOD98
I normally stay away from Greek. I usually tell the JW, "well, I'm not a Greek scholar and I know you're not as well, so lets see which bible is correct. You're bible states Obeisance and I have 5 bible translations that all state "Worhsip", perhaps the 5 translation NIV, KJV, Standard, English and NKJV are all incorrect and your NWT is correct."
Then I tell them, "Explain Rev 5:11 - 14 in your NWT version? Is the whole world worshiping Christ or is that just an obeisance act?" Normally they will say Obeisance since it's in their bible. JWs will never admit that is a worhsip service to Christ in Rev 5:11. Then I follow up with "Why aren't you JWs doing it in your Kingdom Halls? Don't worry, you should not get in trouble if you give Glory and Praise Jesus like the world is doing in Rev 5:11. It's in your bible. You should do it. Just explain to your elders that is obesiance and not worship.
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godrulz
The same word is used of Jehovah and Jesus. They could also say that Jehovah receives obeisance/worship and Jesus receives it. The only reason they will not translate it as worship (although older NWT still keeps it at Heb. 1:6 relating to Jesus!) is because they systematically remove the Deity of Christ from Scripture. Rev. 4-5 has the same words of worship given to the Father and Lamb.